I have seen an albino gar numerous times today, obviously the same one, and I wondered how rare are they. The fish is absolutely gorgeous.

Edited by danseswfish, 24 June 2009 - 08:47 PM.

probably very rare, just like any other albino animals or fish. Nice find

How big is it? Any idea what type?

How big is it? Any idea what type?

Its probably oculatus...but im not sure. Its not an alligator gar and I doubt its a longnose or shortnose. All of those around it are heavily spotted like leopard between very dark to lighter and it seems the younger they are the more spotting and more definition. But this one is pure white like Moby Dick. Its probably about 18 to 24 inches Maybe more but I doubt it most of them seem to max out at about 3 ft ( plus ) and its smaller than those.

Get photos...

Chances are if it is white it is an Alligator. Lepisosteus tend to show a more yellow orange base color. The fish is likely hypomelanistic rather than Albino and will commonly have some black on the fins. This condition is not all that uncommon (In all gar species), but it is very uncommon for them to survive in the wild. In some 20 years of studying gars I have yet to ever see a true albino one.

Get photos...

Chances are if it is white it is an Alligator. Lepisosteus tend to show a more yellow orange base color. The fish is likely hypomelanistic rather than Albino and will commonly have some black on the fins. This condition is not all that uncommon (In all gar species), but it is very uncommon for them to survive in the wild. In some 20 years of studying gars I have yet to ever see a true albino one.

It is definitely not an alligator gar. The mouths of these fishes are much narrower than an alligator gar and again they are HEAVILY spotted.....except for this one. And I am inclined to believe that it is L. oculatus because its mouth/snout is not very long and not very short again ( in alligator gars it is both short and very broad ). However I have not seen this one up close........only when it "surfaces". I do tend to agree that it is probably hypomelanistic though, because it is not the "golden" color of most albino fish. Again I have yet to see it up close. But what I can tell you is that it is an almost "painted" white not like translucent and there does seem to be a little bit of pattern to its tail which might actually be more like a "white pigmented" area as to oppose a totally non-pigmented area. Also you can see the ganoid scale pattern but none of the usual "leopard" spots. Still all in all its an amazing looking fish either way, with an etheral beauty in the way it moves its fins and body ( not that gar dont move pretty nicely anyway--and I am not much of a gar fan ). They do have a kind-of slow methodical grace. So thats whats up now I'll give another account this weekend--if rain doesnt spoil my chances of ever seeing it again or a hungry egret doesnt eat it ( those are both kinda long shots but ya know ). Look forward to more info.

C-U-

danS

It is definitely not an alligator gar. The mouths of these fishes are much narrower than an alligator gar and again they are HEAVILY spotted.....except for this one. And I am inclined to believe that it is L. oculatus because its mouth/snout is not very long and not very short again ( in alligator gars it is both short and very broad ). However I have not seen this one up close........only when it "surfaces". I do tend to agree that it is probably hypomelanistic though, because it is not the "golden" color of most albino fish. Again I have yet to see it up close. But what I can tell you is that it is an almost "painted" white not like translucent and there does seem to be a little bit of pattern to its tail which might actually be more like a "white pigmented" area as to oppose a totally non-pigmented area. Also you can see the ganoid scale pattern but none of the usual "leopard" spots. Still all in all its an amazing looking fish either way, with an etheral beauty in the way it moves its fins and body ( not that gar dont move pretty nicely anyway--and I am not much of a gar fan ). They do have a kind-of slow methodical grace. So thats whats up now I'll give another account this weekend--if rain doesnt spoil my chances of ever seeing it again or a hungry egret doesnt eat it ( those are both kinda long shots but ya know ). Look forward to more info.

C-U-

danS

I'm sorry but what you are describing is as of this time totally Unknown and undocumented in Lepisosteus genus gars. White fish are only known of Atractosteus genus fish. I would be trilled to be proved otherwise but there needs to be more documentation before you can claim this. I'm sorry but I can not take your anecdotal and non supported word at face value. Unless you can provide evidence of this particular fish as being an Lepisosteus it is as good as a Chuppacabra sighting.... I believe you are seeing a White gar but I'm not at all certain in your assumptions as to the species of it. This would need further clarification and a more detailed workup than " I saw it with some spotteds".. Spotteds and Gators do hang out and this is not unusual. Morphology can be skewed when looking at a fish in water. Small gators can look like a spotted in such conditions.

Really I'm beyond interested in this fish but your assertions are totally in conflict with what we currently know of the fish. You need to provide more than just an anecdotal sighting report and your hunch to prove this one out.

Please prove me wrong as I'll be the happiest Gar nut ever, but without anything I'm not so sure and will keep with what has been proven and well documented.

I'm not sure I understand your line of reasoning here, Brooklamprey. It is a fact that any animal that produces melanin is capable of having a mutation knock this ability out (or some other of the many ways amelanism can take place). Just cause we don't have a documented case in nature of a relatively rare event, combined with presumed strong selection against it, does not mean albinism has been "proven". We can't use a lack of observation to prove anything.

And, although I'm not the biggest gar nut, there's no way I'm confusing an 18"+ Atractosteus with a Lepisosteus.

Also, without getting into the whole discussion of what constitutes amelanism, albinism, etc., I'd say that the animal sounds more leucistic than albino, since you're not seeing any remanents of the spots. Typically, when referring to albinism, the pattern should remain, just without the dark pigment. Of course, depending on how close you're getting and the water conditions, this may be difficult to ascertain.

Later, KW

I'm sorry but what you are describing is as of this time totally Unknown and undocumented in Lepisosteus genus gars. White fish are only known of Atractosteus genus fish. I would be trilled to be proved otherwise but there needs to be more documentation before you can claim this. I'm sorry but I can not take your anecdotal and non supported word at face value. Unless you can provide evidence of this particular fish as being an Lepisosteus it is as good as a Chuppacabra sighting.... I believe you are seeing a White gar but I'm not at all certain in your assumptions as to the species of it. This would need further clarification and a more detailed workup than " I saw it with some spotteds".. Spotteds and Gators do hang out and this is not unusual. Morphology can be skewed when looking at a fish in water. Small gators can look like a spotted in such conditions.

Really I'm beyond interested in this fish but your assertions are totally in conflict with what we currently know of the fish. You need to provide more than just an anecdotal sighting report and your hunch to prove this one out.

Please prove me wrong as I'll be the happiest Gar nut ever, but without anything I'm not so sure and will keep with what has been proven and well documented.

I think what Brooklamprey is getting at, without trying to put words in his mouth, is that anecdotal evidence isn't worth much. I've talked in depth with a group of landowners on the Brazos that claimed to have caught and been stung by a fish that was a cross between a hermit crab, a flounder, and a jellyfish. Four other fish biologists and I drank a bottle of whiskey in the river that night throwing ideas around (a sea robin?? a batfish?? chupacabra??) and didn't find anything during an exhaustive search the next morning.

I'm not saying that danseswfish has made that kind of claim, but it's easy to mistake something for something it's not. For a claim that is unlikely, proof in one way of another is needed to solidify the claim. Right now, all I could safely say is that there is a gar with a melanin deficiency out there. Any further claim is speculation.

Edited by rjmtx, 27 June 2009 - 07:12 PM.

I will state again that there has never been a documented "White" Lepisosteus species gar. (Outside of being flushed out at night) This is not unheard of for Atractosteus to have a true constant White coloration. Without detailed documentation, the assertion of a White Lepisosteus is very much just mythological. I really can not take this sighting as fact without evidence and some proof of it's affinity. Being an individual that deals almost exclusively with gar professionally and as a hobby I'm very very much interested and very much learned in what is known when it comes to these fish.

I would like to see some information and proof that would prove this but just a paragraph on a fish forum with no additional data or Proof is not that information. This really seriously needs to be documented with an actual capture of the fish with clear enough photos or an actual voucher to prove the fish by species

And I'll just go ahead and restate that I do not understand your original line of reasoning:

...but without anything I'm not so sure and will keep with what has been proven and well documented.

I do not doubt your assertion that it has never been documented in this genus before and, as an evolutionary biologist myself, I am certainly not suggesting you ever take someone's statement as proof of anything. But, to state that you will "keep with what has been proven and well documented" makes no sense to me when you consider the fact that even though none have ever been documented, this has no bearing on whether one could indeed occur, especially since it is possible in any species that produces melanin.

Additionally, coming from an evolutionary perspective, I'm not exactly sure why this is all that intriguing and worthy of such extreme skepticism. Albinism is extremely widespread throughout the animal kingdom (indeed, it has even been documented in the sister genus). Its mechanisms are pretty well known. Other than from an aesthetic point-of-view, why would such a discovery be at all important or interesting to the biology of Lepisosteus? It really is just a mere footnote, is it not?

I personally would not repeat this story as fact without some kind of additional evidence confirming it. But, I also most certainly do not find the discovery at all hard to believe, nor the possibility of such a record at all surprising.

Perhaps we are just viewing this from two very different perspectives.

Later, KW

Other than from an aesthetic point-of-view, why would such a discovery be at all important or interesting to the biology of Lepisosteus?

It would be interesting as it has not been documented in Lepisosteus. As a biologist that specifically works with these fish and has done so both professionally and on the side, I'm always interested in anything gar. Why such a point would need to be Biologically significant to be interesting is irrelevant.

I do not doubt the potential of Albinism in lepisosteidae, however at this particular time there is no documentation of it.
I really do not find it impossible or "hard to believe" at all.

Something I do know very well is that Lepisosteus do not tend to show a White coloration in any case whereas Atractosteus frequently does show this trait and it is not all that uncommon to them. With this information I doubt this fish being in the Genus lepisosteus but rather an Atractosteus.

This is the point to your misinterpreted quote of mine that is not really at all a "line of reasoning" dealing with Albinism .. It is a strong skepticism in the Identification of the species involved.

so just how rare is Albinism in lepisosteidae?
on a side note this has been one of the best threads ive read in days.
i love the UFC and this reads like a night at the fights!

There is only one author whom specifically mentions a "white" (read attached) Lepisosteus and even then it is well noted it was not albino.
Albinism in gars is just not really documented across either genus.

There is only one author whom specifically mentions a "white" (read attached) Lepisosteus and even then it is well noted it was not albino.
Albinism in gars is just not really documented across either genus.

Albino, alshmino, What ever you want to call the fish you are first both very insulting and condescending and your Chuppacabbra jab is utterly unprofessional. So much so that I have started another thread with another site. And despite your egomaniacal rants just what are your credentials anyway. I am a trained marine biologist. And your own "anecdotal" theories seem more the ranting of a madman. By-the-way I did relocate the fish..downstream from its original postiton and did take pictures...but it had started to get darker so Im not too sure how they turned out. I might and might not show them here because I really dont feel like hearing their critiques. I am going to catch the fish sooner or later.

danS

Albino, alshmino, What ever you want to call the fish you are first both very insulting and condescending and your Chuppacabbra jab is utterly unprofessional. So much so that I have started another thread with another site. And despite your egomaniacal rants just what are your credentials anyway. I am a trained marine biologist. And your own "anecdotal" theories seem more the ranting of a madman. By-the-way I did relocate the fish..downstream from its original postiton and did take pictures...but it had started to get darker so Im not too sure how they turned out. I might and might not show them here because I really dont feel like hearing their critiques. I am going to catch the fish sooner or later.

danS

Oh, and by-the-way, thanks for those two accounts of "albino"ish gar, because it does seem to bolster my assumption that it is hypomelanistic or some pigment mutation like it...you know just white...whatever you want to call it.

This thread started out about putative albino gars. So, what's the definition of "albino"? Does it work like in primates, with Type I and Type II albinism? I think this discussion has been swirling around in a near-vacuum over what is an albino. Richard's point is that no clearly defined albinos have been identified for some gars which doesn't mean they don't exist. Science is always open to new evidence, most of us are waiting for the evidence in this case.

I have seen an albino gar numerous times today, obviously the same one, and I wondered how rare are they. The fish is absolutely gorgeous.

copy and paste from this site.

http://mdc.mo.gov/co.../2005/06/10.htm

The degree of albinism varies among animal groups. Some researchers working with mammals estimate that true albinos occur in about one in 10,000 births. Some of our Conservation Department hatcheries have seen albino catfish produced as frequently as one in 20,000 fish. Yet some researchers working with birds found that albinism occurs in 17 of 30,000 individuals, or one of 1,764 birds.
i would say very rare indeed.just a standard google hit on this was mind boggling.

Edited by CATfishTONY, 28 June 2009 - 11:43 PM.

copy and paste from this site.

http://mdc.mo.gov/co.../2005/06/10.htm

The degree of albinism varies among animal groups. Some researchers working with mammals estimate that true albinos occur in about one in 10,000 births. Some of our Conservation Department hatcheries have seen albino catfish produced as frequently as one in 20,000 fish. Yet some researchers working with birds found that albinism occurs in 17 of 30,000 individuals, or one of 1,764 birds.
i would say very rare indeed.just a standard google hit on this was mind boggling.

thanks again Tony,

Again it started out as a "OOO coool that looks like an albino gar WOAW" Then seeing it subsiquent times and I thought this might really be something. Now after some research and so much unanticipated controversy Im beginning to think this is much bigger than I ever anticipated. I would appreciate if you could list some of those web sites because im having trouble finding them or getting on to them. My questions include:

1) Information on the juvenile stages of Atractosteus.......I cant find any

2) Info on Lepistosteus juvenile and adult growth stages.

Now this is not to say I might be wrong but--Think about the possibilities of 1 Atractosteus in umongst hundreds of Lepisosteus and that one be white or albino. Those are some pretty staggering odds.

thanks again Tony,

Again it started out as a "OOO coool that looks like an albino gar WOAW" Then seeing it subsiquent times and I thought this might really be something. Now after some research and so much unanticipated controversy Im beginning to think this is much bigger than I ever anticipated. I would appreciate if you could list some of those web sites because im having trouble finding them or getting on to them. My questions include:

1) Information on the juvenile stages of Atractosteus.......I cant find any

2) Info on Lepistosteus juvenile and adult growth stages.

Now this is not to say I might be wrong but--Think about the possibilities of 1 Atractosteus in umongst hundreds of Lepisosteus and that one be white or albino. Those are some pretty staggering odds.

This is way over my head!
i just used a tool to search for. "rare" "albino" fish,genetic,mutation,odds.
this topic intrigued me.my son shot a piebald deer and i all ways wondered what the odd of that were.