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Elassoma Gilberti


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#21 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:45 PM

Do they really??? I've only snorkeled in salt water, where they didn't seem to care one way or the other. Now I really need to get myself some prescription goggles!


I really have to get you in the water girl! Yes, in the swiftest water, the big shiners take up position right behind you... not only do you break the current and creat and interesting eddy to surf... but if you put your hands or feet down they are right there ready to see what you disturbed from the substrate that might be edible.

Check out this video...
http://www.vimeo.com/12335891
...those big striped shiners are just all pink and orange and hanging out behind me... had to get my footing just right and then turn around to shoot video, and there are!

OK, enought thread highjacking from me... I will have to dig up that video of the elassoma this weekend.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#22 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 07:15 PM

Check out this video...


*cracks up and cannot stop laughing* I'm sorry! *pauses for breath* It's just that the music to your video http://www.vimeo.com/11404366 was awesome. XD

#23 Guest_skalartor_*

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 08:39 AM

how do you exactly differenciate between e. okefenokee and e. gilberti? is there anything obvious to see? i am just interested since both species are quite similar so some of e. gilberti could have been kept under the name of e. okefenokee. that may not be such a big problem in the us with wildlife habitats of these fish, but here in germany there are only small populations in few tanks. since i got several breeding e. okefenokee in my tanks i am really interested in this topic.

#24 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 08:54 AM

Skalator,
It really all depends on how you define "obvious" :-)
E. gilberti usually have four preopercular pores while E. okefenokee usually have three among other less obvious things.
NANFA members can read up on it here

#25 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 05:21 PM

how do you exactly differenciate between e. okefenokee and e. gilberti? is there anything obvious to see? i am just interested since both species are quite similar so some of e. gilberti could have been kept under the name of e. okefenokee. that may not be such a big problem in the us with wildlife habitats of these fish, but here in germany there are only small populations in few tanks. since i got several breeding e. okefenokee in my tanks i am really interested in this topic.


I understand how if English is your second language, formal scientific papers can be difficult to understand. Here, I pulled the relevant paragraph out of the paper for you. I have also written an attempt at a translation below.

"Elassoma gilberti is distinguished from its
close relative E. okefenokee by possessing four pores
in the preopercular (PO) canal on each side of the head
and usually seven anal fin rays. Elassoma okefenokee
has three PO pores and usually eight anal fin rays.
Elassoma gilberti has slightly less deep body and slightly
smaller dorsal and anal fins than E. okefenokee. Breeding
females of E. gilberti often have blue dashes below
and behind the eye, which are lacking in female E.
okefenokee. Otherwise, the two species are almost
identical or broadly overlapping in meristic, morphometric,
and color features."



I've read the paper that Uland links to. I can't say I'm an expert in it, but I can try to interpret it for you. From what I can understand, the two major differences are that gilberti females get slightly colorful when breeding (okefenokee females don't) and that gilberti, like other pygmy sunfishes, have four pores while okefenokee have three.

From page 127 of the report:
Gilberti found with three pores: 4. Gilberti found with four pores: 897.
Okefenokee found with three pores: 708. Okefenokee found with four pores: 4.

There are two more differences, but they aren't true for all individuals. On average, okefenokees have longer anal and dorsal fins that gilbertis do. And the average number of fin rays is seven for gilbertis and eight for okefenokees, but both species can be found with either seven or eight fin rays. These two traits can vary by individual. So don't depend on fin size or number of fin rays to determine which species you have. Instead use pore count and female breeding color.

The fact that the females are more colorful is the reason why I was excited when offered gilberti after asking for okefenokee. But so far they've done nothing but hide. *sighs* I'll go feed them microworms right now and see if they can begin to tolerate my presence.

Edited by Okiimiru, 26 August 2010 - 05:44 PM.


#26 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:06 PM

The sand finally settled. And yes, they still hate me. But they hate me a little bit less. I was able to get another photo of one.

Attached File  014resize.jpg   82.97KB   2 downloads
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Attached File  007resize.jpg   104.95KB   14 downloads

#27 Guest_skalartor_*

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 03:20 AM

hi,
thanks for your answers. reading scientific papers is not that critical for me, i'm used to it since i'm in science as well. i just had no access to the paper.
thank you very much

#28 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 09:34 AM

hi,
thanks for your answers. reading scientific papers is not that critical for me, i'm used to it since i'm in science as well. i just had no access to the paper.
thank you very much


Okay. I didn't mean to make assumptions about you. I've just recently come to realize (I study two non-English languages) how hard it can be with a language barrier. Example: I just spent three weeks in Japan. Even getting directions is hard when you take into account accents, regional dialect vocabulary, and an individuals' speech rhythm. I couldn't imagine reading a scientific paper in Japanese. *head hurts*

#29 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 10:45 AM

The sand finally settled. And yes, they still hate me. But they hate me a little bit less. I was able to get another photo of one.
Attached File  007resize.jpg   104.95KB   14 downloads


Gasp! This fish is now a dark grey/slate blue! OMG yes

#30 Guest_skalartor_*

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 01:39 PM

hi again,
yes, it's right, a foreign language is sometimes quite difficult to learn. And don't worry, I'm not angry with you, there's no reason for this at all. I'm just glad to gain more information over elassoma species.
but more important: congratulations! let's hope your fish develop well and maybe you can report some breeding success soon!

#31 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 02:30 PM

Are they eating microworms pretty well for you? When I've tried feeding microworms to Elassoma they eat a couple and then lose interest, so I quit using them. IME their #1 favorite is mosquitos, closely followed by fresh-hatched Artemia and chopped blackworms. Maybe different culture media affect the taste of microworms?

Females at best get just a couple specks of blue-green iridescence under they eye. Basically they're a brown fish, with darker brown mottles on light brown base color. They'll darken more over a bottom of dark sand or dark leaf litter (waterlogged oak or red maple leaves will eventually turn black). Watch for dark edge on dorsal and caudal as the first sign of young males, before their blue color appears.

#32 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 07:20 PM

Are they eating microworms pretty well for you?


Yes. I add microworms once a day and they do eat them. That's how I got them to come to the front of the tank, because that's where the worms get added. Um, well. How do I say this... I'm doing things a little differently than you did. I added the two packages of live food you sent to the tank initially, to give them food to hunt down and eat. Then I bought a culture of moina on aquabid, and it arrived a couple days ago and I'm adding a cup of that water to the tank every other day. But what I'm trying to do is wean them onto crushed BettaMin flakes. I add them every four hours or so. The fish are still plump, so I'm not starving them or anything.
I hope you don't think I'm taking awful care of them. :( But their hunger might be what's motivating them to eat the worms.

Edited by Okiimiru, 27 August 2010 - 07:21 PM.


#33 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 11:10 AM

Update: That fish is still blue. :D I will try to get a picture.

#34 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 02:55 PM

Oki -I have not the least concern that you will starve or abuse them in any way. Your posts quite obviously show that you pay EXTREME attention to every fish you keep, and will do whatever is necessary to keep them healthy and happy (and make them love you of course!). Doing things different is fine by me and I look forward to learning from your experiments. If you get them trained onto dry food that'll be amazing and please tell us how you did it. I use live food mainly because I'm not nearly as attentive as you are. I can throw in a bunch mosquitoes, moina, or chopped blackworms twice a week and ignore them in between when things get busy. Also, no filters in my Elassoma tanks.


Yes. I add microworms once a day and they do eat them. That's how I got them to come to the front of the tank, because that's where the worms get added. Um, well. How do I say this... I'm doing things a little differently than you did. I added the two packages of live food you sent to the tank initially, to give them food to hunt down and eat. Then I bought a culture of moina on aquabid, and it arrived a couple days ago and I'm adding a cup of that water to the tank every other day. But what I'm trying to do is wean them onto crushed BettaMin flakes. I add them every four hours or so. The fish are still plump, so I'm not starving them or anything.
I hope you don't think I'm taking awful care of them. :( But their hunger might be what's motivating them to eat the worms.



#35 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 02:04 AM

thanks ^_^

Well, here's that photo I promised. The fish is no longer clear. Now it has some color, a dark brown or slate. I think I startled it a bit with the camera, and it blanched out a bit, but at least it didn't run away this time.

Attached File  009resize.jpg   35.51KB   1 downloads

Edited by Okiimiru, 29 August 2010 - 02:05 AM.


#36 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 02:10 AM

And here's an updated photo of the tank:

Attached File  005resize.jpg   127.31KB   7 downloads

#37 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 12:34 PM

I saw the clear fish and the dark grey/brown fish at the same time. The dark fish was doing a wiggly dance with its dorsal and anal fins in the edge of the plants and the clear fish was chilling in the open area near the clay pots. I read in the NANFA guide to the okefenokee species that the male entices the female to go into the plants so they can mate. Maybe that's what was going on?

I ruined it all by sticking my big human head in there, because as soon as I appeared, the clear fish (probably the female) decided to vamoose and slowly edged into the plants while staring at me. It reminded me of how if you see an angry dog you're supposed to back away slowly while keeping your eyes on it. *sighs* So it looks like I won't be able to observe breeding behavior until they learn to ignore me. The male at least did. He kept doing his wiggly dance regardless of my presence.
Yay for progress.

Edited by Okiimiru, 29 August 2010 - 12:36 PM.


#38 Guest_skalartor_*

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 10:19 AM

congrats.
but even though this wiggle waggle display doesn't necessarily mean any spawning success. but still it is necessary for breeding.
i made the experience of interupting pygmies in their wiggle waggle display as well, they seem to be very shy. though spawning usually occurs in morning hours that won't be an enormous problem...
kind regards
torben

#39 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 10:10 PM

Omg they're undulating! Here's a video

#40 Guest_Okiimiru_*

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 12:20 AM

Omg they're undulating! Here's a video


And here's a picture to go along with that video: Attached File  007resizecompress.jpg   59.11KB   3 downloads




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