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pumkinseeds - more gregarious than other sunfish?

Started by Guest_IvanMike_* , Oct 20 2011 12:03 PM

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19 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_IvanMike_*

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 12:03 PM

At this point I'm keeping pumpkinseeds, bluegill, black crappie & redbreast sunfish. In different tanks for the most part, and I have kept largemouth bass in the past.

For the most part I've found centrarchids to behave rather like the more bellicose neotropical cichlids in terms of their tolerance of conspecifics, and to a lesser extent, to heterospecifics. These observations have been both in captivity, and in the wild. Of course, the crappie - being schooling fish anyway, seem to be quite docile with each other and behave rather like festivums and other "friendly" cichlids with each other.

However, in one tank with mostly small crappie and a few gills I have two smaller pumpkinseeds which seem to seek each other out and engage in no chasing or nipping at all. Likewise, in another tank with larger fish, I have 2 redbreast and 2 pumpkinseeds all caught from the same stream and about 4" TL. While the redbreasts are brutal to each other the pumpkinseeds have harassed the dominant redbreast to the point where i no longer fear for the life of the subordinate one. Like the smaller pumpkinseeds, I notice that outside of very occasional dominance tests the two larger pumpkinseeds tend to hang around each other all day and seem to enjoy each others company.

Do I have odd fish, or is this normal?

Edited by IvanMike, 20 October 2011 - 12:04 PM.

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#2 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 01:49 PM

Generally pumpkinseeds are less likely to shoal than others such as bluegills. But there's always individual variability.

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#3 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 04:29 PM

this is very interesting to me. I know that when I go fishing, the bluegills are always first to the bait and for them not being shoaling, it find that strange. If I catch one p-seed, I will catch a lot,I never catch just one (no, they are not lays potato chips lol..)

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#4 Guest_Orangespotted_*

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 05:05 PM

How large are the pumpkinseeds in question? I've noticed many times that young centrarchids will school and play peacefully with each other, but once reaching a certain limit (probably during reproductive maturity), they will turn on each other overnight. This length varies with each species. If your pumpkinseeds are fairly large though (five inches or more), then I'm not sure. If I had to guess I'd say that they are either females or virtually the same size in a way that one cannot possibly dominate over the other. It must be nice to have your own rare example of sunfishes getting along great! :biggrin:

Edit: What does TL mean? If it refers to the length of the fish then it makes sense that they get along so well

Edited by Orangespotted, 20 October 2011 - 05:09 PM.

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#5 Guest_IvanMike_*

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 08:24 PM

TL = total length as in from snout to the end of the caudal fin, whereas SL = standard length which is from the snout to the end of the caudal penduncle. SL is more often used in scientific discussion, whereas TL is more used in "fish stories" along with FL, or fork length, which is from the snout to the fork of the caudal fin.

I agree that bluegills school, but my comment was more in terms of the aggression you'll observe over time in the wild, or within seconds in a tank! IME it takes quite a few bluegill in a tank to spread the aggression out so you don't end up with one fish harassing the other to death.

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#6 Guest_FirstChAoS_*

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 02:17 AM

I never kept more than one punkie together. But when I kept a pumpkinseed with a bluegill and a dollar sunfish in a 55 gallon the three of them fought constantly. In my experience punkies are as agressive as any other sunny.

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#7 Guest_az9_*

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 04:38 AM

I never kept more than one punkie together. But when I kept a pumpkinseed with a bluegill and a dollar sunfish in a 55 gallon the three of them fought constantly. In my experience punkies are as agressive as any other sunny.

I don't mean to derail the thread about gibbosus' but as a species bluegills can be aggressive and territorial -- when confined in an aquarium or similar confinement -- once they reach a certain size, or as they become sexually mature? I have overwintered large bluegill in a cage (never again) and noticed some signs of fighting. I have raised them from fry size to 6 to 8 inches in a recirculating system and cages with no problems but of course the density was pretty high which probably breaks down the territorial behavior. I also get a much better feeding response in the system and cages when the density is high.

At times I feed hydrated commercial pellets off the pier in the pond that sink to large bluegills, yellow perch, and average size smallmouth bass (no largemouths) and the large bluegills are the most aggressive of the species. A large bluegill will get to the pellet before a smallmouth will.

Edited by az9, 22 October 2011 - 04:39 AM.

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#8 Guest_IvanMike_*

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 11:20 AM

I've seen territorial and aggressive behavior in bluegill under 1" TL - very similar to neotropical cichlids. As soon as the fry look like the actual fish in question, the peace treaty ends.

As with cichlids, the two standard methods are to have few fish with lots and lots of room and a huge amount of hiding places, or to have more nasty fish than water (well, sort of) - the idea being that there aren't enough territories to go around by a good deal, and the aggression gets spread around. Neither method is foolproof, but with close observation and some tinkering, one can generally get a tank into a metastable arrangement of reduced carnage.

I've also found bluegills to be faster on the draw than most other fish when it comes to grabbing food (various stupid fish like tetras and minnows to be an exception at times). This is pretty consistent with the average angler's experience and with observations in the wild. They're curious fish, and engage in less caution than many others.

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#9 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 11:40 AM

Really? Your experience with minnows is that they're slow on the draw for food? That's very different from the shiners around the south, certainly, you have to be careful if you keep them with other fish because the shiners will go right at anything remotely resembling food. But then, they're not often kept with fully adult sunfish for obvious reasons.

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#10 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 11:44 AM

Fundulus, I think the way IvanMike phrased it means bluegills are faster than most other fish, except tetras and minnows.

IvanMike, I know what you mean. We used to have a huge goldfish pond with sunfish in it and the sunfish would always eat the food first. They were faster than the goldfish, and instead of just lipping at the food would hit it, pow! and be gone in a wink. They would eat their share first, and only after they were full would the goldfish get to eat.

Edited by EricaWieser, 22 October 2011 - 11:47 AM.

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#11 Guest_IvanMike_*

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 10:11 PM

Fundulus, I think the way IvanMike phrased it means bluegills are faster than most other fish, except tetras and minnows.

IvanMike, I know what you mean. We used to have a huge goldfish pond with sunfish in it and the sunfish would always eat the food first. They were faster than the goldfish, and instead of just lipping at the food would hit it, pow! and be gone in a wink. They would eat their share first, and only after they were full would the goldfish get to eat.

Exactly - minnows are even more daring (probably due to being a bit slow on the draw in the neuronal dept). The deal with goldfish is like all carp and their relatives, they tend to mouth the food first and spit it out, and then eat it - hence the fact that the hair rig revolutionized carp fishing.

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#12 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 10:39 PM

...minnows are even more daring (probably due to being a bit slow on the draw in the neuronal dept).

Do not start bashing minnows... or those of us that do not miss meals... just because the shiners guys know how to quickly adapt to tank life and eat anything you throw at them is not a reason to accuse them of being 'slow'. They are actually very 'quick'. They adapt quickly and know where to find a meal... again, a trait that I share... be nice to minnows... remember... minnows are people too.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#13 Guest_IvanMike_*

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 05:41 AM

Do not start bashing minnows... or those of us that do not miss meals... just because the shiners guys know how to quickly adapt to tank life and eat anything you throw at them is not a reason to accuse them of being 'slow'. They are actually very 'quick'. They adapt quickly and know where to find a meal... again, a trait that I share... be nice to minnows... remember... minnows are people too.

LOL - I'm not bashing them so much as stating why they might be a bit quicker on the draw come mealtime. Put any strongly schooling fish in that basic artificial grouping (tetras, many cyprinids, etc) in a big group and they think "safe" faster than you can say it. This is why they make such excellent dither fish! :laugh:

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#14 Guest_hornpout_*

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 04:41 PM

I can only speak from my own experience, but this is what I've noticed...

First, my minnows always beat the sunfish to the food, no question. Creek chubs are always at the front of the lunch line, then the shiners and sunfish. Maybe other types of minnows are slow, but creek chubs have wide mouths, giant bellies, and limitless appetites. The sunfish will stop eating when they're full, but the darn chubs eat and eat til their bellies are distended and their little fins can barely propel their bloated bodies around the tank. So I keep telling the kids not to over-feed 'em.

As far as the issue of gregarity (is that a word?) of the sunfish goes...I'm keeping a handful red-breasted and pumpkinseeds in a 125. The male red-breast is the dominant fish in the tank, though he's quite a bit smaller than the biggest pumpkinseed. He'll harry the other sunfish fiercely, especially to chase them away from the nest when he's colored-up and mad. Last month I even euthanized a smaller red-breasted that he had beaten mercilessly. He'll sometimes shepherd the whole tank of fish all to the far side of the central log, which, with it's giant maze of roots and multiple hollow trunks, usually provides sufficient cover. The two pumpkinseeds are super docile and always stick together. All the sunfish will more or less hang together in groups, but the pumpkinseed sunfish are inseparable. I'd say they are definitely more gregarious than the red-breasted sunfish, although neither species wants for personality, that's for sure.

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#15 Guest_VicC_*

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 10:24 PM

From direct experience,
Pumpkinseeds are mean fish in tanks.
No minnow would be safe.
Two Pumpkinseeds will eventually become one.

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#16 Guest_hornpout_*

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 04:38 PM

Not everyone has the same direct experience.
Pumpkinseeds can be docile fish in the long term, depending on a number of factors.
Minnows and pumpkinseeds can coexist peacefully. I've kept them together for years and never had a pumpkinseed eat or bully a minnow, ever- sunfish only spar with other sunfish unless protecting the nest.
While it's true that two pumpkinseeds can kill each other and become one, they can also breed and become thousands.

While direct experience is valuable, it does not equate to authority. When one is profiling an entire species, one must look beyond the dynamics within a single, isolated, contrivance. These sunfish can have aggressive tendencies depending on the circumstances, but that is a generalization, not a rule. I'd hate to have the all the sunfish judge all humans as sadistic, just because the kids next door pluck out their eyes for bait :evil:

. Let me tell you, those kids are whack-jobs, and do NOT represent us as a race.

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#17 Guest_VicC_*

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 07:42 PM

Please give the specific factors.

Have you tried the 2 and only 2 Pumpkinseed experiment?

Not everyone has the same direct experience.
Pumpkinseeds can be docile fish in the long term, depending on a number of factors.
Minnows and pumpkinseeds can coexist peacefully. I've kept them together for years and never had a pumpkinseed eat or bully a minnow, ever- sunfish only spar with other sunfish unless protecting the nest.
While it's true that two pumpkinseeds can kill each other and become one, they can also breed and become thousands.

While direct experience is valuable, it does not equate to authority. When one is profiling an entire species, one must look beyond the dynamics within a single, isolated, contrivance. These sunfish can have aggressive tendencies depending on the circumstances, but that is a generalization, not a rule. I'd hate to have the all the sunfish judge all humans as sadistic, just because the kids next door pluck out their eyes for bait . Let me tell you, those kids are whack-jobs, and do NOT represent us as a race.

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#18 Guest_hornpout_*

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 05:03 PM

I have not tried it, but believe you that it could very likely end badly.

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#19 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 06:00 PM

I have not tried it, but believe you that it could very likely end badly.

I have experience with pumpkinseeds in aquariums. Keeping small numbers yet greater than one sexually mature pumpkinseed is not consistent when confined to a small tank but you can increase odds of success by controlling sex ratio. All male or all female groups tend to be more likely to succeed long term. My logic is females produce pheromones that that rile males up into aggression needed for normal reproduction which causes problems when tank is too small. Sometimes 75 gallons is too small. Females only do not get so riled. Males only and no pheromone. Be considerate that pheromone only needs to come from a sunfish that need not be a pumpkinseed.

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#20 Guest_FirstChAoS_*

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 01:41 PM

My pumpkinseed experience was a year ago when I kept a pumpkinseed, dollar, and bluegill all in a 55. The three of them fought each was an aggressor. Then again 3 sunfish is a bit much for a 55 and that may have effected things.

In my experience a bold sunfish will always bully a timid sunfish and a big sunfish if lepomis is usually bolder than a small.