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Fatheads or rosy reds?

Started by Guest_Bob_* , Dec 17 2011 05:13 PM

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16 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_Bob_*

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 05:13 PM

My latest blog post, this time about Pimephales promelas, imo the most under-appreciated fish in the hobby.

#2 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 02:17 AM

I agree that appearance isn't always what makes some fish great for the aquarium. I've been enjoying bigeye chubs(Hybopsis amblops). They're kind of average to look at, but I really like their personalities.

My daughter sure appreciates the color of the rosy reds. She won't let me use them for feeders. I also remember reading another thread somewhere here about fatheads being good pets, so you're certainly not alone in your appreciation of them. Do you suppose the fact that so many of them are used for bait and feeders has anything to do with why most people don't consider them for pets? Kind of a shame.

Thanks for sharing.

Steve.

Edited by frogwhacker, 18 December 2011 - 02:20 AM.

#3 Guest_njJohn_*

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 01:15 PM

I've bought them as pets and requested over natural color ones. No rosies, LOL.

#4 Guest_Markart_*

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 04:29 PM

I would love to keep the wild form of this species. We see plenty of the 'Rosy reds' in the UK but the chances of wild imports are very small I fear. When up against the more colourful Shiners the wild fish hasn't got the popularist looks and I suppose the market here would be very small indeed (perhaps just me!) Still, I'll keep on hoping, it is Xmas soon after all. [-o<

#5 Guest_njJohn_*

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 08:45 PM

Here in the US, rosy reds and the natural colors are often mixed in the same feeder tank.

#6 Guest_VicC_*

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 11:57 PM

Read Mr. Muller's article years ago in the AC.

#7 Guest_Markart_*

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 07:44 AM

Could someone enlighten me as to how the 'Rosy' variant came about? Natural/man-made/hybrid?

Thanks in advance.

#8 Guest_Bob_*

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:44 PM

Yeah, I was looking for Bob's article and tried to link to it. It was on line, but appeared to have been taken down. I spawned the wild type, but I prefer the orange morph. I admit it, I'm like your average 8 year old-- I go for the brighter colors. Either way, still a neat fish.

I see that I forgot to post the direct link to the article.

http://www.sonnysfishroom.com/?p=148

Here in the US, rosy reds and the natural colors are often mixed in the same feeder tank.

#9 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:42 PM

Could someone enlighten me as to how the 'Rosy' variant came about? Natural/man-made/hybrid?

Thanks in advance.

Everything I've read calls it a mutation. Some sources say that it showed up first at some breeder farms in Arkansas. This was the first time I have heard of it being a hybrid so it sounds like there may be more to the story. It would be really interesting to hear more about how this actually happened though.

Steve.

#10 Guest_Markart_*

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:59 AM

Thanks.

I've read variously the 'Rosy' was a natural morph or man-made; it's the first time I've read mention of it as a hybrid.

#11 Guest_Bob_*

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:15 PM

Bob Mueller is still a member, I think. So I would guess that the xanthic morph was a mutation. As I remember Bob's article, he and some friends did some scale counts and other taxonomic analyses, and concluded that, along the way, some of the fish that he analyzed had characteristics of the other Pimephales species. I had really wanted to link to it and let the article speak for itself, but, unfortunately, it appears to have been taken down from the NANFA site.

The fish in my post look like P. promelas to me. But I'm not gung ho enough to ever do a scale count. (But I'm not about to go out on a limb and say that store bought rosy reds couldn't or don't have other species in their ancestry.)

Everything I've read calls it a mutation. Some sources say that it showed up first at some breeder farms in Arkansas. This was the first time I have heard of it being a hybrid so it sounds like there may be more to the story. It would be really interesting to hear more about how this actually happened though.

Steve.

#12 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 04:17 PM

Scale counts, teeth, fin rays are useful for ID-ing wild fish, but could certainly change in captive-bred fish due to both developmental effects in captivity and genetic drift in a small selective-bred population. Rock-scraping Malawi cichlids raised on flake food can develop different teeth and mouth structure from their wild parents. I'd be leery of using small and naturally variable morphological changes like scale or fin ray counts to make any claim of hybridization in a "man-made" strain of fish. Now finding some P. notatus or vigilax DNA in rosy reds would be more convincing.

As I remember Bob's article, he and some friends did some scale counts and other taxonomic analyses, and concluded that, along the way, some of the fish that he analyzed had characteristics of the other Pimephales species. ... The fish in my post look like P. promelas to me. But I'm not gung ho enough to ever do a scale count. (But I'm not about to go out on a limb and say that store bought rosy reds couldn't or don't have other species in their ancestry.)

#13 Guest_Bob_*

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 06:58 PM

All valid points, Gerald. Still, it would have been nice if I could have linked to Bob Muller's article and let people read it for themselves, rather than relying on my (probably) hazy memory of it.

Scale counts, teeth, fin rays are useful for ID-ing wild fish, but could certainly change in captive-bred fish due to both developmental effects in captivity and genetic drift in a small selective-bred population. Rock-scraping Malawi cichlids raised on flake food can develop different teeth and mouth structure from their wild parents. I'd be leery of using small and naturally variable morphological changes like scale or fin ray counts to make any claim of hybridization in a "man-made" strain of fish. Now finding some P. notatus or vigilax DNA in rosy reds would be more convincing.

#14 Guest_exasperatus2002_*

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 09:05 AM

After this first posted on facebook, it was convenient timing as Im switching my 55 to a native tank. I picked up 5 from the feeder tank at my lfs, 4 rosies & 1 natural. Took 2 days to realize Im not going to eat them & that I bring them food. Now when ever I come to the tank they all race from one side to the other to meet me. They seem inquisitive, spending almost as much time looking at me as I, them. They remind me of mini-trout. If austin powers, mini me- were to go flyfishing, he'd catch rosies instead of palomino's.

Edited by exasperatus2002, 27 December 2011 - 09:06 AM.

#15 Guest_Bob_*

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 08:47 AM

OK. So I checked with Fritz, who checked with Sajjad, who checked with Drew, who reinstalled Bob Mueller's excellent 2000 article on the genetic source of the rosy red feeders.

Here it is, for all who are interested:

http://www.nanfa.org...dec00/0063.html

Thanks, Drew, Sajjad, and Fritz.

Exasperatus, I'm glad to see you're enjoying your rosy reds/fatheads. I've got some natural color young coming up in the show tank, along with some white clouds and rosy barbs. I also have about three dozen xanthic adults in a 20 long quarantine tank with some yo you loaches. I overbought the rosies, thinking I'd lose about 2/3rds, but they all survived. But just to be safe, I kept them for a month in tannin stained water (to kill bacteria) and twice with flubendazole (to kill parasites.)

After this first posted on facebook, it was convenient timing as Im switching my 55 to a native tank. I picked up 5 from the feeder tank at my lfs, 4 rosies & 1 natural. Took 2 days to realize Im not going to eat them & that I bring them food. Now when ever I come to the tank they all race from one side to the other to meet me. They seem inquisitive, spending almost as much time looking at me as I, them. They remind me of mini-trout. If austin powers, mini me- were to go flyfishing, he'd catch rosies instead of palomino's.

#16 Guest_Bob_*

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 08:49 AM

Hmmmm.... I would have sworn I linked directly to the article. (I must be getting old.)

Anyway, here's the direct link to the rosy red/ fathead article on Sonny's Fish Room: http://www.sonnysfishroom.com/?p=148