Gerald - The differences between the captive fish (yours and Erica's) and wild fish could be due to multiple factors, but they are different. The first time I noticed this was in a photo of yours dated 2005. Dirtydutch4x's fish are much more typical of what I see when I get them in the net. As you noted, E. okefenokee and E. gilberti have iridophores in rather distinct bars. I have collected hundreds of these fish, and I've never seen one that has iridophores nearly completely covering the fins and flanks. They are attractive little beasts, but wild fish typically have iridophores in distinct vertical bars and only the distal portions of the fins. If you could take Erica's photo into photoshop and make it a little more teal-green, it would look very much like E. okatie. The situation is even more fuzzy when you look at E. evergladei bred in Europe. From what I've heard, those populations might all have died out though. If it is not genetic, maybe it's food, pH...who knows. One thing that is interesting is that E. gilberti is actually composed of two mtdna lineages, with a break somewhere around Tallahassee. Maybe the mixture of the Aucilla and Wakulla results in this "super blue" fish...otherwise it must be something in the water...
Elassoma ID photos?
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, Mar 24 2012 09:13 PM
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#22
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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:19 PM
Nope, my pygmy sunfish are offspring of the fish you sent me in 2010. I don't even selectively breed them for color.Mike -- Erica's pictures, as far as I know, are all descendents from fish collected by Tim Wolfe, Phil K, and you between 1998 and 2009, all from the Wakulla and Aucilla/Wacissa river basins near Tallahassee. I don't doubt that captivity can change their appearance (i see that often in shiners), but genetically they should be pure gilberti (assuming populations in those two adjacent basins are one species). I've never had oke or gilb from anywhere else, if my sources are reliable. I'm surprised to hear they look "unlike anything you would find in nature." To me they look the same as my original wild stock, which unfortunately I dont have pictures of. Erica, did you get any from another source?
Edited by EricaWieser, 26 June 2012 - 11:23 PM.
#23
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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:25 PM
Or maybe it's the lack of predatory selective pressure. Maybe the bluer ones aren't getting eaten by predators and are getting more ladies. Makes sense to me; I think they're prettierGerald - The differences between the captive fish (yours and Erica's) and wild fish could be due to multiple factors, but they are different. The first time I noticed this was in a photo of yours dated 2005. Dirtydutch4x's fish are much more typical of what I see when I get them in the net. As you noted, E. okefenokee and E. gilberti have iridophores in rather distinct bars. I have collected hundreds of these fish, and I've never seen one that has iridophores nearly completely covering the fins and flanks. They are attractive little beasts, but wild fish typically have iridophores in distinct vertical bars and only the distal portions of the fins. If you could take Erica's photo into photoshop and make it a little more teal-green, it would look very much like E. okatie. The situation is even more fuzzy when you look at E. evergladei bred in Europe. From what I've heard, those populations might all have died out though. If it is not genetic, maybe it's food, pH...who knows. One thing that is interesting is that E. gilberti is actually composed of two mtdna lineages, with a break somewhere around Tallahassee. Maybe the mixture of the Aucilla and Wakulla results in this "super blue" fish...otherwise it must be something in the water...
Fish in my tank die all the time from old age and me being a bad fishkeeper. If anyone wants a corpse for a tissue sample to run an RNA or protein expression assay on you can have one.
Edited by EricaWieser, 26 June 2012 - 11:26 PM.
#24
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Posted 27 June 2012 - 09:24 AM
That 2005 Wakulla E. gilberti photo (in my avatar) was a geriatric 2 - 2.5 year old then (probably 3rd gen from wild). He had the typical blue lateral bars and blue fin margins at age 1, and the blue gradually expanded toward the basal parts of the fins and elsewhere on the body as he got older. So maybe over-extended iridophores are just an age-related phenomenon rarely seen in wild fish because so few live that long.
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#25
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Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:15 PM
I find this very reasonable. My older males are much bluer than the younger males.That 2005 Wakulla E. gilberti photo (in my avatar) was a geriatric 2 - 2.5 year old then (probably 3rd gen from wild). He had the typical blue lateral bars and blue fin margins at age 1, and the blue gradually expanded toward the basal parts of the fins and elsewhere on the body as he got older. So maybe over-extended iridophores are just an age-related phenomenon rarely seen in wild fish because so few live that long.
#26
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Posted 29 June 2012 - 08:12 PM
Eureka! I guess I'm too quick to attribute everything to genetics. (<<< or "I guess I should stop drinking the electrophoresis buffer"...or... "I guess I should pull my head out of my aspirator").
This sounds like a cool little life history project. If either of you (or anyone else reading this) are interested in doing some photo documentation of this species, send me an email. Maybe we can get a short manuscript out of it.
This sounds like a cool little life history project. If either of you (or anyone else reading this) are interested in doing some photo documentation of this species, send me an email. Maybe we can get a short manuscript out of it.
#27
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Posted 02 July 2012 - 09:51 AM
well, i have brand new wild gilberti stock that i am keeping. im interested in this whole color change in captivity thing. the only problem is, my photography skills are pretty pathetic. in a couple of months i may be able to get a decent camera though. any suggestions?
#28
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Posted 02 July 2012 - 06:23 PM
Get them used to you walking up to their tank by using a food that you drop in every day and they eat. For example live cultured grindal worms (my favorite, alive and basically free to maintain) or a cube of frozen bloodworms (expensive, about $5 to $10 a month). If you rely on an in-tank population of californian blackworms they will eat but they won't like you and won't tolerate your camera.any suggestions?
#29
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Posted 02 July 2012 - 08:45 PM
Get them used to you walking up to their tank by using a food that you drop in every day and they eat. For example live cultured grindal worms (my favorite, alive and basically free to maintain) or a cube of frozen bloodworms (expensive, about $5 to $10 a month). If you rely on an in-tank population of californian blackworms they will eat but they won't like you and won't tolerate your camera.
Well I guess that is my problem. I feed them live blackworms, live daphnia, live ostracods, and occasionally grindal worms. I had to add a small female nothobranchius rachovi to teach them to eat the ostracods. They basically have breakfast, lunch, and dinner swimming or crawling all around them. Whenever I get about five feet from the tank they dart into the Java moss. I guess I'm not giving them a reason to come out and say hi.
#30
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Posted 03 July 2012 - 09:11 AM
That's the nature of Elassoma. Mine are still like that after 12+ years of culture in small aquariums where they see me every day. Keeping a few small killies, Heterandria or swamp darters with them might make them slightly more human-friendly, if you move real slow around their tank, but they'll never get excited to see you like real sunfish do, and are always skittish when something outside the tank moves.
Well I guess that is my problem. I feed them live blackworms, live daphnia, live ostracods, and occasionally grindal worms. I had to add a small female nothobranchius rachovi to teach them to eat the ostracods. They basically have breakfast, lunch, and dinner swimming or crawling all around them. Whenever I get about five feet from the tank they dart into the Java moss. I guess I'm not giving them a reason to come out and say hi.
Edited by gerald, 03 July 2012 - 09:13 AM.
#31
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Posted 03 July 2012 - 12:29 PM
so maybe a dumb question but I am still learning these fish so:
If the male is doing his spawn dance around his spot am I to assume that there is a female in there or is this something they will do in hopes that there is a female nearby? Also I started using CO2 in 1 tank and need to be sure if there is a drop in ph that it will not effect them, or might it actually be better for them?
See I am not 100% sure if there is a female in this tank or not, in my 20 long I am sure there is at least 1 but I am not sure about the 10. The dancing male is in the 10. He has been chasing away all that come near including the formosa, but again I have not identified a female in this tank. there are 5 in the 10 and 6 in the 20 right now. I am going to be tearing down my 55 soon to dedicate that to my Elassoma and try to have a colony ongoing in there, just need to decide what I am going to do with my Enneacanthus gloriosus, Maybe the 20 as it is only the 2 of them.
If the male is doing his spawn dance around his spot am I to assume that there is a female in there or is this something they will do in hopes that there is a female nearby? Also I started using CO2 in 1 tank and need to be sure if there is a drop in ph that it will not effect them, or might it actually be better for them?
See I am not 100% sure if there is a female in this tank or not, in my 20 long I am sure there is at least 1 but I am not sure about the 10. The dancing male is in the 10. He has been chasing away all that come near including the formosa, but again I have not identified a female in this tank. there are 5 in the 10 and 6 in the 20 right now. I am going to be tearing down my 55 soon to dedicate that to my Elassoma and try to have a colony ongoing in there, just need to decide what I am going to do with my Enneacanthus gloriosus, Maybe the 20 as it is only the 2 of them.
#32
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 03 July 2012 - 01:17 PM
He is dancing to attract attention... hopefully of a female...
Thank about the natural environment... it is tannin stained water, still, and choked with plants... and he is a 1 1/2 inch fish in the whole wide world... and he grew up a dull grown splotched camouflage color. There is so little current that nothing much in his world moves. If it does, it is eaten by a pickerel or flier. So how does he attract a mate? He becomes jet black with blue spangles... he picks a spot that would be good for attracting a female into... and he dances in front of the front door to his plant thicket... if something comes to get him (since he is attracting attention to himself) he can dive into the thicket. If a girl seems him, he tried to get her to come into the thicket with him...'hey, baby wanna see my weed bed".
Thank about the natural environment... it is tannin stained water, still, and choked with plants... and he is a 1 1/2 inch fish in the whole wide world... and he grew up a dull grown splotched camouflage color. There is so little current that nothing much in his world moves. If it does, it is eaten by a pickerel or flier. So how does he attract a mate? He becomes jet black with blue spangles... he picks a spot that would be good for attracting a female into... and he dances in front of the front door to his plant thicket... if something comes to get him (since he is attracting attention to himself) he can dive into the thicket. If a girl seems him, he tried to get her to come into the thicket with him...'hey, baby wanna see my weed bed".
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#33
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Posted 03 July 2012 - 09:45 PM
interesting way of putting it.... I guess what I was looking for is has anyone seen them dance with a guarentee that there are no females around or is it a sight or hormone thing of some sort that would spark it? I totally get what your trying to say but just need more confirmation as to what others have experienced in the tank enviroment, thank you, I am glad to get a response.
#34
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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:20 AM
If the males are well fed and in general happy they dance basically continuously whether or not there's a female around.I guess what I was looking for is has anyone seen them dance with a guarentee that there are no females around or is it a sight or hormone thing of some sort that would spark it?
#35
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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:48 AM
thanks Erica, that helps. I have a few in this tank that I can not say yes or no to female because they dont stay in sight long enough
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