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legal taking of game/sport fish


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#1 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 03:17 PM

The very first place to start when considering taking game/sport fish for your home aquarium should be the state in which you plan on taking game fish. Since Illinios is my home state I'll talk about how I deal with taking these fish in Illinois. I'd love to hear how you can take these fish from your home state.

In Illinois, most sunfish have no size limit in most bodies of water and all sunfish are considered sport fish. The use of the word "most" twice in the previous sentence should raise some red flags in your mind. You really have to take the time and read your entire rules and regulations of your home state or where you plan on collecting. You might have to visit your state statutes to get more in depth description of your state law. I would not take any advice over the phone unless the person you're talking to is willing to put information in writing with a signature. When I talked to my state DNR official, I was told I could not keep any fish native to any portion of the United States for any reason in the home aquaria even if it was purchased via a legitimate source. I later found no law indicating this was true.

I can't seine, dip or cast net for sport fish and keep them but I can easily take note of where I find orangespotted sunfish for instance. I usually take along either a hand line or an ultra light rod and reel combination. In both cases I prefer 2 lb. test clear line, size #14 or smaller hooks (barbs pinched with needle nose pliers) and ice fishing floats. If I find an area where a large number of my target fish have been found with a net, I simply search under logs or rocks for any thing moving as live bait and drop a line. In areas with heavy log cover, I've found this technique actually works better than nets. Some time ago I took my son out for Orangespotted sunfish and caught many fish well under 2" (perfect for my aquariums). The hardest part was convincing him that we only wanted to take one fish home.

This same technique works in many applications. I've found that seining an area will determine if a sport fish I'm looking for can be found and the rod or hand line simply keeps the process legal. Long and short of this story....look at your state regulations. If the fish is a sport fish and has no size limit, hook and line method will keep your collecting legal.

#2 Guest_sandtiger_*

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 04:29 PM

The two people I talked to both said the same thing. That I could take any gamefish as long as it was within the regualtions for that species. For example. I could take 5 largemouth bass by rod-n-reel 12" and up between May and November. With sunfish I could take 50 by rod-n-reel any time of year. What confused me, and I'm sure it cannot be true is that you cannot keep the fish during the closed season. Thus, it is illegal for me to keep the same LMB I caught in the open season during the closed season. Makes no sense, I don't beleive it and even if it is true I'm not gonna release any fish I have (though by their standards the only illegal I have is my LMB who I will admit is not 12").

#3 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 04:53 PM

Remember that state regulations rarely apply to private ponds, If you are granted permission to fish a private pond, you could keep undersized fish. Might ask the landowner for a note stating that he gave these fish to you.

#4 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 05:10 PM

Remember that state regulations rarely apply to private ponds, If you are granted permission to fish a private pond, you could keep undersized fish. Might ask the landowner for a note stating that he gave these fish to you.



In Illinois private ponds allow you to fish without a license but only if not a club lake/pay or any organizational lake (lake in a subdivision, apartment complex etc). You must observe all state regulations including size and creel limits when fishing on your own property. This applies to club & organizational lakes and privately stocked ponds.

I found this disturbing. I can make a pond for my fish, legally stock the pond and can't remove the fry/adults legally with a net! I kid you not on this one folks.

#5 Guest_killier_*

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 05:30 PM

In Illinois private ponds allow you to fish without a license but only if not a club lake/pay or any organizational lake (lake in a subdivision, apartment complex etc). You must observe all state regulations including size and creel limits when fishing on your own property. This applies to club & organizational lakes and privately stocked ponds.

I found this disturbing. I can make a pond for my fish, legally stock the pond and can't remove the fry/adults legally with a net! I kid you not on this one folks.

thats the way I got my 2 inch red eye bass
Iwas fishing for bluehead chub with 2lb line my flyrod and mosquito fish(captive raised in my feeder fish tank)
yes the creek was very small less than 4 feet wide and under 2 feet in depth at the spot I was fishing
figured red eyes(I was in a creek near lake hartwell so I know it is a red eye) wernt cosidered game fish so I stuck him in my 55

#6 Guest_edbihary_*

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 05:52 PM

What confused me, and I'm sure it cannot be true is that you cannot keep the fish during the closed season. Thus, it is illegal for me to keep the same LMB I caught in the open season during the closed season. Makes no sense, I don't believe it and even if it is true I'm not gonna release any fish I have...

I don't think that means you have to release any fish you took during the open season when the closed season begins. Once you take it home legally, it's yours. Releasing an aquarium fish of any kind is probably illegal in New York (I would think all states). It only means that if you catch it during the closed season, you must release it immediately and not take it home.

Here's one that annoys me. In Pennsylvania, you cannot fish in a "trout stream" from March 1 through the opening day of trout season. I understand that they are stocking trout during this period, and it might make sense to say don't take any trout until opening day, but you can't even collect baitfish if I understand correctly. So starting next Thursday, in order to collect feeders, I have to find another stream. Dang. The ice on my local stream starts to melt, and suddenly the pre-trout season ban begins.

#7 Guest_sandtiger_*

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 09:58 AM

I don't think that means you have to release any fish you took during the open season when the closed season begins. Once you take it home legally, it's yours. Releasing an aquarium fish of any kind is probably illegal in New York (I would think all states). It only means that if you catch it during the closed season, you must release it immediately and not take it home.


That's not the impression I got, I'll have to see if I can find the e-mail. I may have deleted it. I'm almost positive they said something about releasing the fish where it was caught. I talked about this awhile back with Teleost on AP.

Here's one that annoys me. In Pennsylvania, you cannot fish in a "trout stream" from March 1 through the opening day of trout season. I understand that they are stocking trout during this period, and it might make sense to say don't take any trout until opening day, but you can't even collect baitfish if I understand correctly. So starting next Thursday, in order to collect feeders, I have to find another stream. Dang. The ice on my local stream starts to melt, and suddenly the pre-trout season ban begins.


What annoys me is that the trout in question probably aren't even native and yet get all kinds of special treatment.

#8 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 10:57 AM

I recall that discussion. They indeed told sandtiger to release his fish :-s . I'd be willing to bet that would also be in violation of the law. This is exactly why I only refer to written law and never talk to officials from my state DNR. It's clear the laws were written for sport fishing and not our types. It's usually pretty easy to work within the rules but easiest to follow the written rules.

#9 Guest_edbihary_*

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 11:35 AM

I'm almost positive they said something about releasing the fish where it was caught.

I see. I still have to believe that it would be illegal to release the fish after it has spent time in your aquarium. If you have to release the fish at the place it was taken when the closed season begins, what happens if you ate the fish? Are you supposed to vomit it back up into the stream? I know that sounds ridiculous, but that is the point. It is ridiculous to return that fish to the stream.


What annoys me is that the trout in question probably aren't even native and yet get all kinds of special treatment.

I would have to agree with that. They release rainbow trout and brown trout, both exotics. Why they can't raise native brook trout in the fish hatcheries and release them, is beyond me.

#10 Guest_Brooklamprey_*

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 09:06 PM

I recall that discussion. They indeed told sandtiger to release his fish :-s . I'd be willing to bet that would also be in violation of the law. This is exactly why I only refer to written law and never talk to officials from my state DNR. It's clear the laws were written for sport fishing and not our types. It's usually pretty easy to work within the rules but easiest to follow the written rules.


I really do not doubt for a second that the response was "release it as soon as it is out of season". This truly is likely what the law could be interpreted to say.

99.9% of the gamefish laws are designed to manage the fish for angling, killing and eating. It is rare you can get a common sense response about actually catching the fish with the purpose of keeping it alive. Game fish are regulated due to the fact they are generally harvested as food not for "pets", these laws are designed to prevent overfishing and to provide a method of management of a given species that will likely be overfished if not properly managed. hence the silly meanings of the laws when it comes to our hobby, where we are not looking to catch hundreds of fish for commercial gain but just a few for personal enjoyment.

For example:
In Michigan I can catch Five black bass or Smallmouth bass a day over 14 inches. But this is if they are Killed.. if they are alive then that means that for each live one I have in my possession it counts to my daily limit, therefore, if I catch and keep two smallmouth bass for an Aquarium then by law that means that I can only catch three bass and keep them in a day. If I catch two more and keep them then I can only catch one and keep one a day.....You get the idea as long as I have the fish in my possession and it is alive that counts to my limit.... Now if one of the four fish died then I could catch two again...

This above aspect of Michigan law makes no sense at all from a common sense or management angle but then it was not ever intended to be applied to Native fish hobbyists, thats not who it was written for...Nor was it ever even thought about what the implications would be for those that would want to do such a thing as keep a smallmouth bass in a fish tank.

#11 Guest_Slasher_*

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 11:10 PM

I see. I still have to believe that it would be illegal to release the fish after it has spent time in your aquarium. If you have to release the fish at the place it was taken when the closed season begins, what happens if you ate the fish? Are you supposed to vomit it back up into the stream? I know that sounds ridiculous, but that is the point. It is ridiculous to return that fish to the stream.
I would have to agree with that. They release rainbow trout and brown trout, both exotics. Why they can't raise native brook trout in the fish hatcheries and release them, is beyond me.



I don't know how they do it there in Pittsburgh, but around here they do indeed raise brook trout and release them for fisherman. Problem is, it's only in small streams, and at most they only account for 40% of the trout stocked. But, there is one stream here, Mill Creek I believe, that is strictly stocked with brook trout. It's a nice place, and occassionally there's a few big ones.

#12 Guest_edbihary_*

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 01:59 AM

For example:
In Michigan I can catch Five black bass or Smallmouth bass a day over 14 inches. But this is if they are Killed.. if they are alive then that means that for each live one I have in my possession it counts to my daily limit, therefore, if I catch and keep two smallmouth bass for an Aquarium then by law that means that I can only catch three bass and keep them in a day. If I catch two more and keep them then I can only catch one and keep one a day.....You get the idea as long as I have the fish in my possession and it is alive that counts to my limit.... Now if one of the four fish died then I could catch two again...

Richard, perhaps I don't understand Michigan law. But it seems to me that "in your possession" normally means that they have to be physically in your possession, actually with you. At your home does not constitute in your possession while fishing. The enforcement agent may look in your bucket, but he's not going to follow you home and look in your aquarium. If the number in your bucket is within your possession limit, you should be fine.

#13 Guest_edbihary_*

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 02:07 AM

I don't know how they do it there in Pittsburgh, but around here they do indeed raise brook trout and release them for fisherman. Problem is, it's only in small streams, and at most they only account for 40% of the trout stocked. But, there is one stream here, Mill Creek I believe, that is strictly stocked with brook trout. It's a nice place, and occassionally there's a few big ones.

It would appear you are correct. In the list of Pennsylvania state fish hatcheries, clicking on a number of hatcheries' links reveals that they do indeed produce brook trout. However, they also produce the exotic trout species. I would like to know what reason they have for that.

#14 Guest_Gambusia_*

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 10:53 AM

In North Carolina it's perfectly legal to catch and keep gamefish on hook and line gear or other legal gear (such as shads with dipnets).

I like to go fishing and so I sometimes keep the gamefish I catch or others catch (like the rock bass and warmouth sunfishes I have). It's neat to study the fish in the aquarium and I think makes one a better fisherman and conservationist.

Anyway here in the mountains of NC there are also lots of trout hatcheries and one can buy trout right from the hatchery as trout from private hatcheries are not 'inland game fish' by law. I've bought and kept trout from the hatchery- no big deal.

I've also bought and kept fish from the 'pond stocking' hatcheries that show up at Southern States, ect for stocking fishing ponds. Great way to get black crappie and channel catfish.


Only PUBLIC INLAND FISHING WATERS are covered by the fishing rules in NC.

Fish from hatcheries, pet shops, other hobbyists/fish breeders and private lakes/ponds do not come under the collection/fishing rules.

Example: You catch a 18 inch muskie from a public river. Must be released as the minimum size for muskie is 30 inches.

BUT if you catch that 18 inch muskie out of a private pond, then you can keep it as the minimum size does not apply.

#15 Guest_Brooklamprey_*

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Posted 25 February 2007 - 02:20 PM

Richard, perhaps I don't understand Michigan law. But it seems to me that "in your possession" normally means that they have to be physically in your possession, actually with you. At your home does not constitute in your possession while fishing.


Nope Ed, all live fish in your possession, on stream, at home, where ever counts against your limit. I have had many a conversation with the MDNR about this and this is exactly what the law is interpreted to mean. This does not mean some CO would ever truly know if I had fish at home, but if I did wish to follow the letter of the law this is what it means.

Also in Michigan I can only catch and keep darters on hook and line. This is something I have had great fun messing with the local CO's about. I carry around a tiny little fishing pole with a size 26 hook and freezedried blood worms.
It is hilarious when the CO stops by and ask me what I'm catching (Which they always do as they just like to chat) and I pull this out as well as show them a bucket full of Least darters :P

(Edit: BTW please note that I have a strong working relationship with the DNR and I also have proper permits to catch Least darters using unconventional methods. I'm not advocating not following the laws)

#16 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 02:14 PM

Here's a slightly different perspective -

There's a remarkable amount of genetic diversity left in brookies in the southern and central Appalachians, some researchers have suggested recognizing several distinct lineages as valid species. At least in Maryland, an emphasis on stocking browns and rainbows (mostly because they're easier to rear, grow faster, and are less susceptable to disease in the hatchery) has preserved some of the native strains of brook trout; if they'd been stocking brookies from Michigan, or New York, or wherever many states get their broodstock, that diversity would have been lost.

cheers,
Dave


It would appear you are correct. In the list of Pennsylvania state fish hatcheries, clicking on a number of hatcheries' links reveals that they do indeed produce brook trout. However, they also produce the exotic trout species. I would like to know what reason they have for that.



#17 Guest_edbihary_*

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 06:15 PM

Here's a slightly different perspective -

There's a remarkable amount of genetic diversity left in brookies in the southern and central Appalachians, some researchers have suggested recognizing several distinct lineages as valid species. At least in Maryland, an emphasis on stocking browns and rainbows (mostly because they're easier to rear, grow faster, and are less susceptable to disease in the hatchery) has preserved some of the native strains of brook trout; if they'd been stocking brookies from Michigan, or New York, or wherever many states get their broodstock, that diversity would have been lost.

cheers,
Dave

Somehow, preserving genetic diversity by introducing a species as an invasive does not sound like good policy to me. It makes much better sense to preserve them in their native habitat.

#18 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 07:02 PM

I think you sort of missed the point ed... Dave was pointing out that the fact that the hatcheries in that area focused on stocking the non-natives (browns and rainbows) and not a non-native strain of brook trout this esentially preserved the genetic diversity of the brook trout. If they had stocked more brook trout presumably stocks from areas where they are abundant further north the non-native brook trout stocks would have interbred with the native southern forms of brookies esentially causing the destruction of these genetically diverse southern strains. Yes it is too bad they stocked trout other than a local form of brook trout in the first place but I think Dave made an excelent point.

#19 Guest_Slasher_*

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Posted 26 February 2007 - 10:48 PM

It doesn't make much sense to me for the fish and boat commission here to throw around exotic trout, but then again the money the state makes for trout fishing is quite a bit. The average guy that only goes fishing the first two weeks of trout doesn't care what species it is, as long as he catches it and it's big.

In PA there are reserved areas for brook trout that you are not allowed to fish, or atleast catch and release. These are out in the middle of nowhere, up mountain streams, where no average trout released in a larger river/stream is ever going to make it to. If it were up to me all streams would be stocked with brook trout. They should instinctively know how to live in these waters. Other trout just seem to be gone by the next season. Brook trout have their niche here, so wiping out darters and sculpins shouldn't be a problem.

There's a stream around my house that has natural reproducing brook trout, and there's still tons of fish and crayfish thriving in there. The stream out front here just has...well...crayfish, and the occassional darter. One time I even saw a madtom. It is heavily stocked with browns and rainbows. But all the brook trout streams around here have tons of life. I don't know, maybe that's how it is just around here?

But anyways, back to the main topic. In PA bass, trout, and walleye have their own seasons, and they have to be a certain size. They can be caught in just about anyway besides a net, including your hands, or by your teeth (how they expect you to do it, I just don't know.) Panfish and everything not included or that isn't specified anywhere else 50 combined species by hook, or hands and what not, just not nets. Then there's baitfish, which includes suckers, minnows (daces and shiners) darters, and I believe catfish, but I'm not sure without looking it up. There's also fishbait (crayfish and what not) which is again, 50 combined. I think PA has reasonable laws and limits, and it seems to work out pretty well.

One thing I hate though is the fact you have to have a trout stamp to be in trout approved waters, even if it's just collecting baitfish. That's an extra 9 dollars to pay to never go trout fishing.

#20 Guest_edbihary_*

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Posted 27 February 2007 - 02:17 AM

I think you sort of missed the point ed... Dave was pointing out that the fact that the hatcheries in that area focused on stocking the non-natives (browns and rainbows) and not a non-native strain of brook trout this esentially preserved the genetic diversity of the brook trout. If they had stocked more brook trout presumably stocks from areas where they are abundant further north the non-native brook trout stocks would have interbred with the native southern forms of brookies esentially causing the destruction of these genetically diverse southern strains. Yes it is too bad they stocked trout other than a local form of brook trout in the first place but I think Dave made an excelent point.

With all due respect, Brian, I'm not missing the point at all. I fully understand the concept. Preserving the genetic diversity of native fish by introducing exotic fish, instead of commingling native fish from different locales. I think it's ridiculous! I can think of some analogies that would be seriously politically incorrect, and would probably get me banned here. But let's just keep it to fish. I'm going to put an invasive species, such as rainbow trout or brown trout, into Pennsylvania waters, to preserve the genetic diversity of native Pennsylvania brook trout? Somehow a brown trout from out west is better than a brook trout from Ohio? I'd rather see Pennsylvania brook trout supplemented with Ohio brook trout; at least they are still brook trout. Then Pennsylvania would still have only brook trout, which are native to Pennsylvania. And they are the most beautiful trout, and our official state fish, by the way. And if brook trout from other states are somehow genetically impure (humbug), why not just breed Pennsylvania trout in Pennsylvania hatcheries for release in Pennsylvania? There is absolutely no reason why this can't be done.

I think Slasher is onto something; money talks. But the reason there is little else in the trout streams is because they ARE trout streams. The exotic species, rainbow trout and brown trout, eat everything. They eat the food that the native fish should be eating, and then they eat the native fish themselves. There is nothing left after the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission introduces many thousands of these invasives into a stream. And I'm sure this is the case in every other state also. I have seen on opening day of trout season, and for weeks thereafter, hundreds, if not thousands, of people lining the banks of the trout streams, without even elbow room, fishing out everything, competing for the trout that for the last few weeks have eaten everything in the stream. If there is anything else in there, such as sunfish, they will get fished out too. There will be nothing left but minnows. Fishing for exotic trout is one of the most destructive things done to our streams, and it is encouraged and supported by the Commonwealth in the name of money, the money for the fishing licenses and trout stamps. And that woman on the other forum wants to pick on us, for keeping a few sunfish and minnows in our aquaria, while fishing for the trout she loves to eat is killing the native fauna in our streams. It all just makes me sick!

And Slasher, while the laws in our beloved Commonwealth seem like they are meant to protect the fish to some degree, they are WAY too complicated. You have to check regs and maps just to move downstream and cast again. It is ridiculous. The laws are so much simpler in neighboring Ohio, they are actually understandable. You can plan a fishing trip without taking a whole slew of maps, and printouts of the regs. Our fishing in Pennsylvania is micromanaged to the point where Einstein could not understand the fishing laws. Something needs to change.



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