Live smallmouths in Chinatown

Hello!

First, thanks to all for your terrific information. I've been lurking because I wasn't planning on setting up any tanks until after I moved. I had a lot of tanks when I was growing up because Grandpa was a hobbyist. (Like many, it all started with winning one comet for me in a carnival.) We had oscars, a lot of mollies, angels, kuhli loaches, neons, and the like. Later I inherited two of his 50 gal metal framed glass tanks and had gold severums and uarus. Grandpa and I learned a lot from independent aquarists, of which there are fewer and fewer today. Now if you buy fish in a store, it's probably from someone who hasn't kept any and they just work that section when they're not taking care of filling shelves with cat and dog food.

But thanks to the Internet, I get a lot of generally excellent information. Wish Grandpa could see the Internet now, he would love exchanging information. I remember visiting a fish store in Manhattan with him which had an electric eel and there was a contact in the tank hooked to a speaker so you could hear the clicks when he fired off shots.

I was in Oakland Chinatown this weekend shopping for produce. Folks, if you need produce or fresh or frozen fish or shrimp to feed your fish, there are some great bargains in Chinatown, and generally everyone speaks English too (although sometimes they might play a bit cagey at the beginning). There is also a ton of various kinds of dried fish and shrimp, and you can get small, dried dime-sized shrimp for around $6/lb. Now I have no idea if they contain sulfur or such, but I was thinking eventually of getting some and trying it with some test fish in an isolation tank because that seems to be a fantastic price.

(I'm sure if you built a relationship with a store that you could make an excellent deal to buy some entrails and fins from freshly killed and cleaned fish if you think that would be good for your fish. They're going to throw that away, and you can tell it's fresh and hasn't been sitting for long, because they do tremendous volume.)

I had always seen a lot of live channel cats, tilapia, white bass (striper-hybrids?), rock cod, and of course, a lot of shrimp (prawns) and crawdads. Most of those are farm-raised except for the salt-water. I never wanted to have any of the fish for my tanks, since most of them looked banged up and many had ich or small fungal infections where they got banged or scraped by rough handling. Some of the pink tilapia looked quite healthy, though. (I'm sad to say there were a lot of very unhappy bullfrogs and turtles who seemed resigned to their fate too.)

I never noticed them before, but this weekend I saw some small-mouths. I think they were farm-raised because they were all very uniform in size and they were in very good condition too with no visible bruises, no missing scales, fungus, and the fins were erect and intact. The eyes were bright and clear, color was good, lots of olive green and brown, not gray or tired-looking. This one store had them in a styrofoam container on the street, so the fish was slowly dying, but there were others in other stores in tanks.

If I get one, I'll make sure to be in Chinatown right when the tank trucks make their livestock deliveries, so I won't get a fish that's been sitting in the filthy water in the display tanks for days at a time.

As I have become more interested in North American natives of late, I have been making a ton of notes for when I can set up a stream tank and maybe a nice planted tank for some sailfins and killies. (I want to make no careless mistakes that I could prevent by study and preparation.) But these smallmouths looked very good, and I'm wondering if anyone has any experience buying livestock from Chinatown for their tanks.

I was thinking of setting up a 36 inch tank for a single smallmouth with some plants and driftwood to simulate the shallows near the edge of a lake. I know I will have to use UV filtration and perhaps treat the smallmouth with some medication to kill any fungus or parasites he might be carrying, and I'm also prepared to lose a couple of them if they aren't healthy. But for $6 a lb, I think that's a great deal. I live within 20 mins of Chinatown, so I could shlep (a good Cantonese word, eh?) the fish home very quickly in a 5 gallon bucket half-filled with my own treated water. I'll be sure to ask my favorite Chinese waiter to write a note saying I wanted to keep the fish in a aquarium so treat it gently and don't kill it for me. (My family has been here since the Gold Rush so my Cantonese is very poor and my Mandarin is non-existent.)

If I get a smallie, I think I'll feed him cichlid pellets and redworms which I'll culture with my kitchen waste and maybe live crickets or mealworms. Unless you folks have other recommendations.

Do any of you have any thoughts about this? I'm still not sure I'll do this, but as it might take me another year to find a new place, I am starting to think I should start now with one tank just to keep me company (and I find the sound of the filters to be very soothing late at night). Eventually I will want to keep a smallmouth or two in a larger tank with some sunfish of some kind or a chain pickerel, and perhaps some crawdads skulking around under the driftwood and rocks.

Apologies for posing so many questions and thanks for what you've already taught me so far. Cheers, WCK

P.S. If any of you are visiting the San Francisco Bay Area, please tweet me (KennFong1) or email KennATKennFong.com if you'd like me to show you San Francisco Chinatown. There are a few fantastic fish stores in San Francisco too, including a couple near Golden Gate Park, where they have the amazing Steinhart Aquarium.

(Edited by me to correct a couple of typos, and then a second time to post this notice telling you what I had edited.)

Edited by WestCoastKenny, 09 July 2012 - 03:15 PM.

I too have seen the fish at the local asian grocery store. I know they're there to be sold as food but my first thought was, "That is so much cheaper than at the pet store! Do I have tank space for that?" Which is actually a valid concern, especially with a bass. You might want to eventually get a bigger tank as the fish grows. And also, check with your local Department of Fish and Game to make sure it's legal to keep a smallmouth bass in your home aquarium. But, yeah, other than that it sounds good so far. Please post some pictures once you get it all set up so we can see it too

I like the enthusiasm. There was a guy on here awhile back that had an American eel he bought in a Chinese supermarket, so the general concept has been done before. On the flip side, California has some crazy restrictive laws, and as Erica said what you are proposing may not be permitted. In fact, I vaguely recall reading on MFK that a guy tried to buy a LMB from 99 Ranch, but they refused to give it to him alive. So you might want to check with that vendor to see if it's doable.

I too have seen the fish at the local asian grocery store. I know they're there to be sold as food but my first thought was, "That is so much cheaper than at the pet store! Do I have tank space for that?" Which is actually a valid concern, especially with a bass. You might want to eventually get a bigger tank as the fish grows. And also, check with your local Department of Fish and Game to make sure it's legal to keep a smallmouth bass in your home aquarium. But, yeah, other than that it sounds good so far. Please post some pictures once you get it all set up so we can see it too

I like the enthusiasm. There was a guy on here awhile back that had an American eel he bought in a Chinese supermarket, so the general concept has been done before. On the flip side, California has some crazy restrictive laws, and as Erica said what you are proposing may not be permitted. In fact, I vaguely recall reading on MFK that a guy tried to buy a LMB from 99 Ranch, but they refused to give it to him alive. So you might want to check with that vendor to see if it's doable.

Thanks for your feedback. I am going to check the regulations, although I am pretty certain that in Chinatown no one cares. I see undersized abalone that poachers bring in -- and I've reported but no one responded -- so I'd be willing to bet no shopkeepers care either. I am not sure, but if the buyer you mentioned at 99 Ranch was "low fahn" (caucasian), I'm certain they would have been more careful. (99 Ranch is also very nearly a western-style supermarket except the majority of the goods cater to Asians so I would guess they would likely be more careful about compliance.) For example, in some of the stores where they sell live chickens and poultry, they are very wary of low fahn, particularly those who might want to take photos to expose cruelty. If you bring out a mobile phone in one of those shops, even if you don't intend to take photos, they get very suspicious and they will stop you from taking photos.

I know that some Asians have bought and released turtles as some religious rite, because I've read about this in the newspapers. So I'm guessing that in Chinatown they are a bit less diligent about compliance.

I don't intend to violate any F&G regulations so if I get more serious about this I'll check carefully. My uncle is a retired park ranger, so I'll check with him as to the letter of the law as well as the spirit of the law. But as I am 100% certain I will not be releasing it into any waterway, dead or alive, I wonder what the harm would be to be non-compliant. If it's not being used for reproduction and not going to be released, possessing it in an aquarium is the very nearly the equivalent of keeping its carcass in my freezer.

If I find it's legal to possess one, @Erica, I will indeed post pictures. I would ultimately like to have a tank that's about 48" long. In fact, I was thinking of also getting a Southern Painted Turtle or a RES so maybe they could cohabitate. I was advised by an ecology officer at a local educational institution that if I wanted a RES or any crayfish from the creek that runs through the campus that I was welcome to have them as they were invasives. The crayfish were a food species from Louisiana which had out-competed the native crayfish in the creek. (If I get more involved, maybe I can organize a posse to start at the top and work our way down to the end and harvest the crayfish. They have monthly clean-up campaigns for that watershed.) He did advise me to stop by his office for a statement of permission on his letterhead so campus police would not detain me. He said in our informal conversation that I would be doing him a favor.

This is all very blue-sky at the moment but as this gets closer to reality, I'll ask for some advice about any possible cohabitants based on the size and features of the tank including the plants, driftwood, and sand or gravel.

Thanks!

P.S. @Erica, I've read your advice to others about buying cocktail shrimp as fish food. Have you ever tried the dried shrimp sold in Chinatown? I'm sure if you soaked it, it would reconstitute nice and plump, although I have no idea what preservatives might have been used.

Edited by WestCoastKenny, 09 July 2012 - 06:59 PM.

<snip>check with your local Department of Fish and Game to make sure it's legal to keep a smallmouth bass in your home aquarium. <snip>

<snip>On the flip side, California has some crazy restrictive laws, and as Erica said what you are proposing may not be permitted.<snip>

My preliminary research shows the intent of the law prohibits it, but the letter of the law seems a bit vague.

If the intent of the law is to prohibit release of live and viable fish into local waterways, if I get my SMB, the closest I will come to live release is if I trip and fall between the store and car and the fish somehow escapes from a sealed 5 gallon plastic pickle bucket, survives the journey from the sidewalk to the street to the sewer system, and makes it to the estuary. Assuming it's healthy enough and fertile, it would then have to find a healthy mate of the opposite sex, a welcoming environment free of other predators, anglers, and pollutants. Which is to say, possible but so improbable that I would be more likely to hit the top prize in the powerball lottery without buying a ticket. (After all, someone could buy and lose the winning ticket, which I would then come upon and have the foresight to check the numbers and safely cash it in.) I think the risk of live release and establishment of another competing population is much greater if the tanker truck crashes while crossing a bridge over a freshwater river.

Besides SMB are or were present in many of the waterways and lakes in Northern California, although they have become more scarce since the widespread release of LMB and spotted bass.

Still, aside from specfically consulting with F&G, if I get my smallie, I'll make sure to have my bucket tightly covered (with an few small air holes drilled in the cover) once I pay for it and won't uncover it until I get inside my apt.

[edited by me to add sarcastic comment.]

Edited by WestCoastKenny, 09 July 2012 - 08:03 PM.

Still, aside from specfically consulting with F&G...

That is what I recommend. They are not your enemies. I called mine up recently to see if I needed a permit to sell my Elassoma gilberti and we kind of became friends. The people who work there love fish just like we do. Give 'em a call and explain what you want. There might be some way to buy a permit or order the fish from a licensed dealer that makes keeping a smallmouth bass legal for you to do. The game wardens will work with you to try to find it.

Edited by EricaWieser, 09 July 2012 - 09:03 PM.

P.S. @Erica, I've read your advice to others about buying cocktail shrimp as fish food. Have you ever tried the dried shrimp sold in Chinatown? I'm sure if you soaked it, it would reconstitute nice and plump, although I have no idea what preservatives might have been used.

Lol yes. I was a Japanese minor in college and I enjoy eating many Japanese foods, so I've definitely noticed some similarities. The first time I bought a can of freeze dried krill from the pet store I sniffed it and noted that it is remarkably similar to the dried shrimp sold in asian grocery stores. Also, dried algae is less expensive when purchased as a sushi supply than marketed as a fish food.

The sad thing is my fish don't find freeze dried shrimp as tasty as I do. My Elassoma gilberti are too spoiled on their diet of live grindal worms to do anything but turn their nose up at freeze dried. You might find with your planned culture of live red worms that your smallmouth becomes less enthusiastic for the cichlid pellets. (I wouldn't blame it it if did)

Edited by EricaWieser, 09 July 2012 - 09:11 PM.

All centrarchids are exotic in California except for Sacramento Perch, but of course they're everywhere after the last 150 years or so.

That is what I recommend. They are not your enemies. I called mine up recently to see if I needed a permit to sell my Elassoma gilberti and we kind of became friends. The people who work there love fish just like we do. Give 'em a call and explain what you want. There might be some way to buy a permit or order the fish from a licensed dealer that makes keeping a smallmouth bass legal for you to do. The game wardens will work with you to try to find it.

Good point, Erica. At the very least I'll want to try to establish a relationship so I can call in reports when i see undersized abalone.

Regarding dried shrimp, my late cat Gonzo used to beg for them, and he was also mad for cuttlefish. Maybe your fish will like cuttlefish. WCK.

I was back in Chinatown again. I went back into that same store -- remember the fish I was in a Styrofoam container on the sidewalk, with no filtration or aeration -- and saw a large tank about 48 x 18 x 18 with dozens of smallies all about 10-12 inches. They were in very good condition in spite of the water being positively murky, so maybe the tanker had been there very recently. They were hovering more or less in formation facing the front of the tank. They varied somewhat in color intensity, but they were all undamaged with dorsal fins held high.

Across the street, in a larger fish market, I noticed dozens of sturgeon, all about 24 inches long. WCK

Oops...

Now that I've taken a closer look at them and compared them with photographs, those weren't smallies, they were largies. I couldn't tell the mouth size so well, but the lateral line from front to back was the giveaway.

Sorry, folks, what the heck do I know?

In the words of the immortal Homer Simpson:

D'oh!