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Elassoma gilberti: Round 2!

Started by Guest_EricaLyons_* , Sep 11 2013 08:52 AM

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#1 Guest_EricaLyons_*

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 08:52 AM

Hi everybody. My name is Erica, and I kept Elassoma gilberti from August 2010 to December 2012. The strain was originally collected near Tallahassee about a decade previous to that. I kept them in first a 10 and then a 55 gallon tank. The parents were kept with the eggs and fry, which I realized was a mistake because new fry didn't survive very well with their parents there to eat them. I witnessed a female eating a fry once.

Here is a link to the previous topic: http://forum.nanfa.o...ssoma-gilberti/
Here is a link to the Fish In Focus article that summarizes that 50+ page, 1000+ post behemoth: http://www.nanfa.org...Egilberti.shtml The main point is: Keep your pygmy sunfish breeding or soon you won't have any. They've got such short life spans.

I'm going to try to keep these fish again. Now that I know how critical getting fry from them is, I've designed the setup to maximize fry survival. At first I was going to do a divided tank, with 7 mesh plastic canvas segmenting a 75 gallon tank into four regions. I would rotate the fish once a month into a new region. They would leave behind eggs and fry which, by the time the adults were rotated back to that section, would be too large to eat. But after doing some math I realized that this would only save the last 3 or so days of fry (that's how long the eggs take to hatch), which means every month I would be imperiling 26 or 27 out of 30 days' worth of fry. That's not a very good egg recovery rate. So instead I scratched the dividers and am following Gerald's suggestion. Every weekend I will use a gravel siphon to collect the eggs from where they are laying on the substrate. I have a 10 gallon tank set up, and will pour the egg water into that 10 gallon to allow the fry to hatch and grow separate from the adults. That's the plan

The foods I'm going to feed them are:

Petsmart cubed frozen bloodworms, which I will hold with planting tweezers in the tank water and then cut off of the cube with scissors, so as to decrease the size
Live grindal worms, which I grow on sponges in plastic boxes using dog kibbles and add to the tank once or twice daily. Hand feeding tames the fish, otherwise they flee when they see you.
Live microworms, which I grow on oatmeal in tupperware containers using a coffee filter
Ken's Golden Pearls, various sizes.
Live blackworms (in-tank population). The one pound for $36 from Eastern Aquatics arrived yesterday, I'll upload some pictures later.
Live powdered green water in the fry tank

I will update with pictures once the fish arrive. I'm trying to order some Elassoma gilberti from Zimmerman's Fish.

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#2 Guest_Joshaeus_*

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 09:56 AM

I hope this post gains the fame and prestige of its predecessor! By the way, are you also going to have a snail population in the tank to feed the elassoma (and presumably the dario)?

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#3 Guest_EricaLyons_*

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 04:50 PM

By the way, are you also going to have a snail population in the tank to feed the elassoma (and presumably the dario)?

They are unavoidable. There are currently ramshorn and physa fontinalis in the tank right now.

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#4 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 11 September 2013 - 08:43 PM

Everything I have read and experienced indicates that they are highly advantageous. Baby snails are a good food.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#5 Guest_bflowers_*

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 12:16 AM

One thing that has helped me get quite a few fry growing in the tank with the parents is adding Oak leaves. I add about a dozen to a 15 gallon tank and I have noticed quite a few more fry surviving. I also feed the tank with microworms every other day.

Bill F.

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#6 Guest_velvetelvis_*

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 01:03 AM

Neat! I just ordered some juvenile blackbanded sunnies from Zimmerman's. Looking forward to seeing pictures of your new E. gilberti setup and wishing you much success.

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#7 Guest_EricaLyons_*

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 08:03 AM

Here is a video of the pound of blackworms.

The tank has a bit of 'blue-green algae' (cyanobacteria I bet, but I haven't pulled any out to check if it smells minty) because it's newly set up. The dario dario (tankmates for the Elassoma gilberti) seem happy in there. I haven't lost any more, just that one that I think I might have squished during tank construction or something. So there are eight remaining of the nine, six of which are female and three of which are male.

Here is a picture of the species of leech that came with the blackworms. They look similar to a leech I saw previously with blackworms, except that these have eggs instead of young on their bellies instead of their backs.
Posted Image

http://img.photobuck...zps098b320c.jpg

My neolamprologus multifasciatus thought these bag leeches were delicious.

I confirmed my order of a dozen Elassoma gilberti with Zimmerman's fish. Their origin is from just west of Tallahassee. They're being shipped Monday, and I will update with pictures when they arrive.

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#8 Guest_EricaLyons_*

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 04:17 PM

Hmm. I was chatting with the vendor and apparently the leeches aren't just detrivores, they're blackworm-ivores. I kinda wish I'd sorted them out now, but from my experience with doing that in the past, I always spent like two hours sorting leeches from blackworms and still failed to separate them all. Eh. *shrugs* That's the problem with blackworms, which I already knew about. They last a month to three months and then the unavoidable leeches eat them all. You don't see blackworms for a little while and then, when it gets hungry enough, MEGA LEECH (that's its name) comes out from the substrate and wiggles above ground, attempting to communicate "I'm hungry" with dance.
This is last time's MEGA LEECH:

That's a 10 gallon tank, for a sense of scale. Stretched out it was 6+ inches long. I guess it could make a unique pet.

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#9 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 04:36 PM

I usually get 2 to 3 dozen little gray leeches per pound of blackworms, but never got a Hogwarts Basilisk Leech like you got. I do see big brown ones occasionally out in streams and swamps when sampling. The little gray ones stick to the shoebox bottom, so it's pretty easy to pick them out when changing the worm's water, and as you've noticed some fish will eat them (i dont think Elassoma or Dario will). I'm sure I've dropped dozens to hundreds of them in my tanks over the past 10 years, and I rarely see any - they don't seem to survive long or reproduce much in my tanks. Some leeches will eat dead animals, but they are all carnivores, not detritivores as far as I know.

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#10 Guest_Rainbowrunner_*

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 12:19 AM

It may be worthy to note that wild snails are often an intermeadiate host for gill flukes.

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#11 Guest_EricaLyons_*

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:30 AM

It may be worthy to note that wild snails are often an intermeadiate host for gill flukes.

At first I read that and was confused but then I get it, you're suggesting the blackworms or leeches could be intermediates for a fish parasite. I specifically bought these fish from Eastern Aquatics because they wrote on their ebay auction that the worms(&leeches) were cultured in a fish-free environment. That way, any parasite requiring a fish host stage would not survive long term in their breeding population.

I am impressed with Eastern Aquatics and will buy more worms from them when I need more in the future. They shipped quickly and they all arrived alive, and they e-mailed me some quick tips for how to remove the leeches (which have never not been in any blackworm population I've ever bought, by the way) if I was interested in that. They're a good vendor.

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#12 Guest_EricaLyons_*

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:35 AM

I usually get 2 to 3 dozen little gray leeches per pound of blackworms, but never got a Hogwarts Basilisk Leech like you got.

lol

Hopefully these leeches don't figure out how to survive long term in my tank. They're all doing a stressed out vertical wiggly dance on my substrate. They've planted their butts and are rising right up pointing towards the surface and wiggling frantically, like they're in pain or something. I'm not sure why they're doing that but it's different from the time I got a 'Hogwarts Basilisk Leech' (lol), which immediately burrowed under ground and got to work eating and reproducing. That big species in the video was an egg layer with an almost mermaid's purse looking dark brown egg sack that it preferentially layed on PVC pipe and shells.

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#13 Guest_EricaLyons_*

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 11:31 AM

The new Elassoma arrived and are doing well. (There was a first batch of Elassoma, which I shipped back to the first vendor. Discussed here: http://forum.nanfa.o...a-longer-topic/ ). The new Elassoma were ordered from Zimmerman's Fish, a vendor I highly recommend, as they arrived quickly, were healthy, and have adjusted to my tank with no losses.

Here is a picture that shows the blue iridescence that helps show that this is gilberti/okefenokee as opposed to evergladei.
Posted Image

http://gallery.nanfa...my sunfish4.jpg

Based upon the collection location about a half hour west of Tallahassee, these fish are gilberti instead of okefenokee. The species division map can be found in the Snelson et al paper found here: http://biology.unm.e...et al. 2009.pdf See page 136.

Also, this new batch of Elassoma gilberti appears to be getting along well with the scarlet badis dario dario that are in the tank. Here is a picture of a male dario dario, a female dario dario, and a cleverly camouflaged Elassoma gilberti. It might help to make this picture bigger by clicking on the link and then clicking on it a few times, and then closely examine the exact center of the photo. The fish has those spots that my previous colony of gilberti did, too, that are excellent camouflagers.
Posted Image

http://gallery.nanfa...ario 1.jpg.html

The new fish are very shy. I'm fattening them up into breeding condition with the one pound of blackworms I ordered from Eastern Aquatics, but I intend to get them as not-shy as the dario dario are (they'll let me take a dozen photos in a row, flash and no flash, without fleeing) soon by feeding them live grindal worms. Once fish figure out that seeing your face means they're going to be fed live worms, they aren't scared of you any more. Food is an excellent way to tame them.

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#14 Guest_EricaLyons_*

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 11:40 AM

Here are two more photos. Notice the thin tail base in the first one. Gilberti and okefenokee have thin tail bases and evergladei don't.

Posted Image

http://gallery.nanfa...fish 1.jpg.html

Posted Image

http://gallery.nanfa...nfish3.jpg.html

It has been a week since they arrived but I don't see any colored up and dancing yet. They probably will start soon.

My apologies for the lousy photos. Hopefully once they stop being afraid of me, I can get closer to the fish tank without them fleeing. My camera's not designed to take far away photos of small things. Oh well. Thankfully I have grindal worms, so soon the photos will be better.

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#15 Guest_Rainbowrunner_*

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:58 PM

in the wild i've noticed them color-up in the spring and more interestingly in the fall before the cold weather moves in, perhaps a last ditch effort to spawn?!

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#16 Guest_EricaLyons_*

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 09:19 AM

in the wild i've noticed them color-up in the spring and more interestingly in the fall before the cold weather moves in, perhaps a last ditch effort to spawn?!

I'd believe that. My last colony produced quite a lot of eggs right before they died out from old age. There was a sudden peak in spawning activity. I even collected some of the eggs and could have saved my colony, but I stupidly killed them because I didn't have a good egg raising setup. But really they were spawning at all times. There was never a time where they wasn't a baseline level of spawning, once they got well fed and situated into territories.

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#17 Guest_EricaLyons_*

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 09:31 AM

Update:
By the way there's a problem with the kitty litter (pure clay, no clumping chemicals or fragrances added) in this tank. I completely drain it, refill it, it's crystal clear for a day, and then it's completely opaque again within four days. I've never had this happen before in any of my tanks. I think it's a combination of the strong filter outflow and my negligence (I've not been wringing the sponges out but once a week). Thankfully there's a finite amount of dust and every time I wring out the Paradiso synthetic sea sponges in the filter they wring out black water, so I'm gradually removing it. But that's why there aren't any more pictures at the moment.

The fish don't seem to care about the dust. They're fattening up and the ones right up next to the glass are developing nice round bellies. The plants, also, are still growing despite me not being able to see them. Oh, I might not have mentioned that. There's hygrophila difformis, ludwigia repens, myriophyllum tuberculatum red, and myriophyllum pinnatum in this tank. I'm also hoping the one strand of riccia fluitans becomes a floating mass. *nods* Yup, so there's your update. Elassoma don't care about dusty water. They like to eat worms. And they like the dario dario. The two are getting along swimmingly, but the Elassoma haven't claimed any territory yet, so we'll see if that lasts.

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#18 Guest_Yeahson421_*

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 10:48 AM

That sounds a lot like the problem I had with Kitty Litter. It took a few weeks, I actually think more than a month for me to see to the back of the tank, and almost 3 or 4 for it to be as clear as my other tanks.

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#19 Guest_EricaLyons_*

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 11:12 AM

Yeah.

It's gotta be the high water flow. There's more current in this tank than there have been in any of mine in the past. I could cap it with a few inches of sand, or do a few more 100% water changes, or decrease the filter pounding on the ground. Any of those would solve the problem.