Elassoma gilberti: Round 2!

I vote sand, because I love the benefits of a live sand bed.

What benefits? There is no available nitrogen to spare in this tank. My pygmy sunfish tanks always register 0 ppm ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. The 0 ppm nitrate can be a problem. I try to keep it at 10 or so ppm with overfeeding (I add flakes even though they don't eat them) to keep the plants from starving.

I'll do a water change and take a picture and upload it later tonight / tomorrow so you can all see the setup.

Edit:
Woah, I see the problem now. This filter is pushing water right directly at the substrate. I think I can fix it by changing the way it's hanging on the tank. Then it will kick up less dust and the water won't get cloudy, hopefully.

Edit:
Woah, I see the problem now. This filter is pushing water right directly at the substrate. I think I can fix it by changing the way it's hanging on the tank. Then it will kick up less dust and the water won't get cloudy, hopefully.

Mkay, so, that.... didn't work. I have no idea what's wrong with this tank. (I suspect the pound of worms are stirring up dust as they burrow) This has never happened in any of my non-wormed tanks before; usually the dust stays on the ground and the tank completely clears in a day or two. *shrugs* Oh well. It's not hard to do an 80% water change every day or every other day until it stops. There is a finite amount of dust; I'll just remove it all.
yay for readily water changed tanks.

For everyone reading this and trying to set up a kitty litter tank in the future, I imagine if you had this one week post setup dust problem, all you'd have to do to make the dust stop same day is to pour down an inch or two of sand to 'cap' the clay. I'm just doing it differently because I don't want to go out and buy sand and also because I'm spoiled with easy water changes. All it takes for me to do a water change is connect a line, turn a tap to start the water flowing and start suction, then turn the tap off and wait as the tank drains itself down the sink over the course of about 2-3 hours. I usually just walk away and come back. It won't drain below the level of where the siphon is and the fish don't really even notice. Then to refill I simply close the valve and turn the faucet tap on, and it refills in about 5-10 minutes. The water in this particular regional kitty litter's tank happens to match the tap water coming out of the faucet, so it doesn't matter how much water I change because it's the same pH, DH, and I match the temperature. (For my Tanganyika tank I only change 50% at a time max to avoid shocking the fish. My tap water is 0 DH and they have crushed coral sand substrate.)
If I owned my own home, all my tanks would be on this setup: http://www.aquaticpl...nge-system.html but since I rent I just use a sink faucet siphon connection. They're wonderful.

The fish are still doing great. They're fat and healthy. No dancing yet. I'm probably teaching them to hate me with all the water changes but eh, they'll get over it. Or their children will. They seem to be congregating in the back of the tank under the ludwigia repens, preferring that at the moment over the hygrophila difformis or the two myriophyllums. That's probably because the tank is a little sparse right now because it's new and the only available shadows, really, are under the ludwigia. These are not open-space fish. They like cover.

The black worms are persisting. They have spread out and are present in all corners of the tank. I don't see any leeches but I can't rule out the possibility that they are still there, burrowed underground. Maybe all the worm and leech burrowing is contributing to all the dust. This is the largest number of burrowing worms I've ever dumped in a tank before, so maybe that's why.
My grindal worms have finally become fully uninfected again after this summer's fruit fly attack. (they were laying eggs in the worm cultures. Ew. I taped coffee filters over the air holes and the cultures are finally now all maggot free. Yay. Not that the fish cared; they ate the maggots, too).

Pictures will come soon once the water is permanently clear.

Here is a video of a leech eating a blackworm. I added some pellia because a nice person at my local fish club had four handfuls of it in the auction, so I bought it all. I think the Elassoma appreciate a little bit more cover, and pellia's a really pretty plant. It's all wavy. Pellia is also one of those plants that has a really wide distribution. I don't know what species this is, so it's possible this is native and possible that it's not.

Video:


Here is a picture of the californian blackworms burrowing deep into the clay. This... could be why there's dust. They're burrowing all the way down to the bottom.

http://gallery.nanfa...5-3/008_002.JPG

As for the fish, they are mostly doing okay. They are fattening up on all the blackworms and grindal worms. There is one with the Elassoma fuzzy death on it.

There is one with the Elassoma fuzzy death on it.

I didn't want to exacerbate this problem so I've been doing only 40% water changes instead of 100. I guess my tap water wasn't as close to the tank water as I thought. I've also started squeezing out the filter sponge twice a day. I've got my favorite sponges in there ( www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdxeJ1QNomA ) so it's not making zero progress, but man, this is the worst. The fish are in there but I can't hardly see them. It's awful. Blackworms, you and I are no longer friends. And at this point I'm too scared there are eggs to put a capping layer of sand down. *sighs* I'll update when it finally clears up. Looking at the pictures, there's technically progress happening when I compare one photo to another. But, yeah, this is terrible.

By the way, the Pellia species you possess is probably not native (originated in Europe or the far east), but there are a few species native to the US. I can't seem to find their ranges though. It appears to be a liverwort here that most typically grows on streamside mud banks.

Update:
The leeches have eaten nearly every last blackworm and I think that if I cleared the water now it would remain clear. On the plus side: yay the leeches got rid of a problem I didn't know I would have. Apparently there is such a thing as too many blackworms. But on the minus side, the ground is now a writhing mass of leeches. Every square inch has 1-2 of them. It's sorta gross.

I will resume water changes over the next few days and see if I can get the water to remain clear. The green algae I added to help the infusoria population has taken the opportunity to turn into greenwater, so I've got to get that gone. *sighs* But at least one thing's not terrible: the fish don't seem to mind opaque water so I've only lost two fish total that I know of: one more dario dario and that fuzzy Elassoma. The rest are fat on blackworms (and leeches? I dunno). Hopefully that statement remains true once the water clears.

Once it clears up I'll take a picture for everyone. Here's crossing my fingers that there might be fry in there.

And no, I don't think I'll be ordering more blackworms. Definitely not a pound, at least, or maybe split up the pound between all my tanks.

The leeches..... ate one of the Elassoma. I have no idea how this happened. Maybe he slept too soundly.

The story is: I found one Elassoma gilberti male dead, with the only thing wrong with him that his brain and skull were missing (leeches were on that area, eating).
I'm a little freaked out right now. They're zombie leeches, they must have braiiiiiiiinz.
Sorta wish I'd taken a picture, but I was too weirded out.

I've got some fenbendazole on hand from an earlier experience with hydra. I'm going to dose the tank in an attempt to wipe out all the leeches. They've done their job eating all the blackworms (thanks?) so now I'm going to do my job and protect my fish from the hungry hungry leeches. I've got grindal worms on hands as a food source.

Would've never expected that to happen. Sorry about your loss...
At least we now know that leeches are not suitable elassoma tankmates

Edited by Joshaeus, 01 November 2013 - 05:29 PM.

At least we now know that leeches are not suitable elassoma tankmates

Ha ha ha, yes. That is true.
(I wrote a summary of Elassoma gilberti [round 1] and it was basically that, "Over the course of this 50 page topic, I've found a long list of things not suitable to be Elassoma tank mates". Looks like I'm continuing the tradition here )

It turns out the stuff I had was levamisole hydrochloride (killed the hydras and my seahorses) not fenbendazole (killed the hydras but not the neolamprologus multifasciatus). I used 1/10 of the amount I used on the seahorses. Hopefully the Elassoma are okay. I also put a female betta in there, because fish club. She's solid white.

Have you had any luck clearing up the water? You could add 'floss' to the filter. Basically, it's quilt batting or other type material that helps 'polish' the water.

Have you had any luck clearing up the water? You could add 'floss' to the filter. Basically, it's quilt batting or other type material that helps 'polish' the water.

The cloudiness went away when the blackworms were all eaten by the leeches. Right now there's greenwater, so I'm stopping by a store today for a drop of Tetra Pond Algae Clear, which in my experience clears greenwater in hours (see previous Elassoma thread). Theoretically it should be crystal clear by the end of today! I'm super excited.

The Petsmart Tetra Pond Algae Clear was $18! So I bought Seachem Clarity for $4.50 because it said it cured 'all causes' of not-clarity. It didn't affect the greenwater at all. I'm going to Pet Supplies Plus to get a smaller bottle of Tetra Pond Algae Clear for hopefully ballpark $8 in the near future. Stupid Seachem Clarity. *sighs*

The Tetra Algae Clear worked, woo hoo. The water is now clear and staying clear so far. The only difference between then (cloudy water) and now (clear) is the lack of the blackworms. This means the cause probably was:
burrowing + clay kitty litter = cloudy water.
The massive amount of burrowing is gone and now the water is staying clear post water change. I guess the reason why I didn't see this in my elassoma tank before is because I was adding ounces of blackworms at a time. This time I added a full pound, which was a dramatically different amount of burrowing, enough to make the water cloudy. I wouldn't recommend a pound to others, not only for the cloudiness reason, but also because they didn't last any longer. The limiting part to blackworm keeping isn't keeping them alive or the rate at which the fish eat them: it's the population of blackworm-eating-leeches. That's what seems to limit the in-tank blackworm population.

I'm still totally going to add blackworms every few months, though. Not a pound (never again!) but I'll split it up between my tanks and I'll store them in a separate tank and gradually portion them out. I think grindal worms alone might have contributed to the high baby eating rate in my last tank. Animals that are missing something in their diet are probably more likely to eat foods they wouldn't eat if they were full. That might have been what made them hunt down their fry so relentlessly in my 2012 Winston-Salem setup (grindal worms mostly) and not in my 2011 Cleveland one (black worms mostly). I'm also more willing to spend money on bloodworms now that I realize grindal worms alone might not be enough. Although, with the vacuum siphoning of the fry, maybe it's less important. We'll see.

In other news, the leeches survived the levamisole hydrochloride. I think I was too hesitant about the dose; I didn't want to hurt my fish. Well, I didn't hurt anything all right. The thousands of leeches are very healthy. I'll order some Panacure (fenbendazole) off ebay and try again to exterminate the leeches.

I've been adding grindal worms every day since the water cleared and they're not really figuring it out. It makes me sad; I'm so used to trained elassoma that rush forward and eat the worms almost before they can drop off of the tweezers. This batch is still untrained so they don't rush forward. The dario dario are out in the open more then the elassoma and seem to be learning faster. The female betta is the fastest learner of all, I think because she was captive bred and probably already associates humans with food. She's eating flake food from the top too, a behavior I hope the dario dario and elassoma will pick up. Her little waggly dorsal fin is adorable. I have a soft spot for female bettas and for waggly finned fish in general, so she stays. She's cellophane-ish colored, so I don't think she'll scare any of the dario or elassoma, although she is much bigger than the elassoma and a little bigger than the dario. The elassoma seem scared of me most of all. I hope that will change soon, as they can now see that I'm the one bringing them their food.

First photos!
Okay, I won't lie. They still hate me, so prepare yourself for some pretty terrible pictures. Except for the betta; she loves people. But yeah, these are the best photos I can get so far. Soon they'll tame. Soon.
At the present moment they prefer to be in the pellia. The pellia is their friend.




http://gallery.nanfa...llia zoomin.jpg
http://gallery.nanfa...s in pellia.jpg


Here are pictures of the non-native tank mates.
Betta, who is there to teach them to eat flake food: http://img.photobuck...zps6b42cc49.jpg
Dario dario, who is there, um, to add some red to the tank: http://img.photobuck...zps1c84f530.jpg

It's pretty cold in there. My apartment's been around 50? 60 degrees? I don't have a heater in this tank to warm it up. Who knows, maybe it will help them to have a winter.
Also the leeches are clearly hungry. They are everywhere, crawling all over everything. Oh yeah, that reminds me to order some fenbendazole. Can't believe I forgot to do that, whoops.
Update: I bought this: Panacur C canine dewormer 3 1 gram packets.
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Panacur-C-Canine-Dewormer-Dogs-1-Gram-Each-Packet-Treats-10-lbs-3-Packets-/00/s/NTAwWDQ3MQ==/z/p~wAAOxygKZSQzKR/$T2eC16V,!w0FI,OhlGZuBSQzKRCUKw~~60_12.JPG

I'm surprised your betta is alive if the water temperature is anywhere near the 60 to 50 degree range you indicated...temperatures below about 72 are supposed to be fatal to betta splendens (though not necessarily fatal to their wild counterparts).

I'm surprised your betta is alive if the water temperature is anywhere near the 60 to 50 degree range you indicated...temperatures below about 72 are supposed to be fatal to betta splendens (though not necessarily fatal to their wild counterparts).

My apartment may be 50 ish but I just stuck a thermometer in the tank and checked and it's 67 Fahrenheit.
It's probably because the tank under it is heated. The top 75 gallon tank with the elassoma is over another 75 gallon tank that is heated to what my thermometer says is in the upper 80's.
Here's a picture so you can see what I'm talking about:


http://img.photobuck...zps581c40a5.jpg


Betta seems fine.
The low last night was 30. I closed most of the windows in the apartment. *shrugs*
Right now I'm sitting in a room with an open window. The weather channel says my current outside temp is 55 F. That top tank reads 67.
I am probably paying a pretty penny to heat that bottom tank since the heater's probably nearly always on, but *shrugs* that's the price of keeping a Tanganyikan tank. In the summer the heaters in the tanks probably don't turn on at all, since my apartment can and will hit more than 90 (inside!) because central air has its limits and I live in North Carolina. By the way that's not fun. Keeping chinchillas means I have to keep the temperature below 90 or they get uncomfortable, what with them being practically more insulated than a penguin. Yeah, my tanks go through some weather extremes. Upper 60's in the winter, mid 90's a few days in the summer. Lol, maybe I could spawn shiners after all.

I should mention that back when I lived in Cleveland I was in a dorm not paying for my utilities (well, paying a grand a month for housing so 'free' utilities) meaning my dorm was always, always the same temperature every moment of the year. And the elassoma spawned just fine. This species doesn't need seasons to spawn. I could add a heater but since they don't care, it would just be spending money for no reason.

The lower tank's light ballast probably transmits a lot of heat into the tank above too. The 2 x 4 framing of the stand provides a box to hold the heat while it is absorbed into the tank bottom. Try measuring the air temp in there after the light has been on a few hours -- I'll bet it's 90+F.

The lower tank's light ballast probably transmits a lot of heat into the tank above too. The 2 x 4 framing of the stand provides a box to hold the heat while it is absorbed into the tank bottom. Try measuring the air temp in there after the light has been on a few hours -- I'll bet it's 90+F.

Back when I had the 54 watt per bulb T5HO fixtures, that was true. But these are 32 watt T8's. I can leave my hand on the fixture and it registers only slightly warm if I'm thinking about it and trying to feel a temperature difference. The air in between the tanks is room temp. I can grab the bulb and put my hand full on it and not feel the desire to pull my hand away.

Back when I had T5HOs over these tanks, I got sick of my energy meter rotating like a clock when the lights were on. I literally couldn't blow dry my hair when the tanks were on because it would blow the breaker. So I switched from four 4,000 lumen per bulb T5HOs to 2750 lumen per bulb T8s.

Here's a description of my old T5HO setup back when I had this set up as saltwater:
Each 75 gallon tank had four 54 watt, 4,000 lumen each bulbs, two 32 watt T8s (2750 lumens each). Total was 21500 lumens over 75 gallons = 286 lumens per gallon. You know how I'm always recommending 100 to 200 lumens per gallon to everybody? Those tanks are the reason I have the upper cap. I grew all manner of algae. It was pretty algae, but yeah, algae. That's back when my tank was saltwater, where one 75 had a breeding pair of synchiropus splendidus and the bottom 75 was for the fry they never produced *sighs*. When I switched it to fresh for this neolamprologus multifasciatus Tanganyikan and elassoma gilberti setup, I swtched the lights. Now they are:

T8 setup: Four 2750 lumen Daylight Deluxe T8 bulbs, 32 watts each. Total is 11,000 lumens over 75 gallons = 147 lumens per gallon. The plants grow beeeaaautifully and I don't have algae. I've got the lights on a timer for three hours before work and five when I get home, and it's like finally, finally I got the lighting right. This 150 lumens per gallon setup is the best tank I've had for growing plants but not algae. yay.

So, yeah, the lights aren't making much heat. I grabbed them just now to test it to myself, and touching the bulbs themselves barely registered as warm. The bulbs have an efficiency of 86 lumens per watt. They're not heating up the tank much at all.

A friend from the local fish club wanted to either throw out or give away some plants, so I volunteered to pick them and up have thus added three large amazon swords to the elassoma tank. I don't know if they're permanent there yet or not, but there was room, so they're there for now. I remember how my old anubias used to be active spawning sites and were always prime territory to claim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krjR06CfrlY

The dario dario are already fighting over who gets what sword plant, so it's possible the elassoma will really like these swords like they did the anubias. If so, one or two could stay.

I ordered three Tom's Hatch 'n Feed brine shrimp hatcheries. My problem with brine shrimp, other than that I tried to grow them all throughout college and failed miserably repeatedly for four years and thus now hate them with a passion because all my non-fish-breeder friends easily kept them while I could not (same problem I have with house plants, grr), is that I have no room for a hatchery. Well, I found this video that finally explains how an in-tank hatchery works (how does the salt water stay in? Does it stay in? Do brine shrimp come out?): youtube.com/watch?v=2D51eM-Rfl4 so I feel more reassured that this might actually work even for someone like me who's done nothing but kill brine shrimp over and over again.

Here's a photo of the tank, temporarily cloudy because I just added the Amazon swords. You can see a few dario dario squaring off to fight over the sword plant on the right.


http://img.photobuck...zps6266e48e.jpg

This is my first time keeping a sword plant. I've never had an amazon sword before. Well, I do have the native sword Echinodorus tenellus ( http://plants.usda.g...le?symbol=ECTE2 ) but I keep it as a floating plant in my hardwater Tanganyikan tank, which I have a feeling you're not supposed to do, but it grows fine *shrugs*. So I guess these Amazon swords are like the giant versions of my little native chain swords, and will make similar runners but under the ground. Neat.