I suppose one way you could solve your leech problem is relocate all your current mini fish to another tank for a few days, and in the meantime, plop in four or five 4" bluegills. Your leeches would be gone in no time!
Joking aside, could you describe the hatchery? It sounds interesting but I'm having a hard time visualizing it, particularly whatever mechanism prevents the saltwater and tank water from mixing. Sounds like a neat little device in all though.
Elassoma gilberti: Round 2!
Started by
Guest_EricaLyons_*
, Sep 11 2013 08:52 AM
136 replies to this topic
#62
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 26 November 2013 - 12:40 PM
could you describe the hatchery? It sounds interesting but I'm having a hard time visualizing it, particularly whatever mechanism prevents the saltwater and tank water from mixing. Sounds like a neat little device in all though.
This is the video I saw that made me try it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D51eM-Rfl4
Here's a picture (below).
http://gallery.nanfa...er/038.JPG.html
The instructions were pretty sparse, they just said something like, "Remove divider (that thing in the very top-most-right-est that makes a little box in the right chamber), add salt, wait for it to dissolve, put divider back in, add eggs."
I of course added salt and shrimp at the same time, and took the photo you see below within the two minutes it took for the salt to dissolve. It's one of my pet peeves when cooks say to slowly add all the ingredients together. As Alton Brown once explained in his show Good Eats, we control how much we stir flour batters to control gluten release from the flour. So I feel like, if your ingredients don't have gluten (it if's not the flour step), it does not matter if you add them all at once. Thus I am a notorious instructions-ignorer, which is why I added the salt and the shrimp at the same time and the tank's temp is 67, not 80, yet somehow the shrimp all hatched. Bwah ha ha ha ha ha, your instructions were stupid. I'm going to add the eggs, the butter, the sugar, and the spices at all the same time, and not care how much I'm stirring until the flour's in! *cackles*
(let it be noted that when instructions matter, like in my job as a grad student following protocols, I follow them to a T and am extremely anal about following them to a T. It's only the people I don't respect I'm disobedient to, like chefs who tell me to gradually add eggs to milk or brine shrimp hatchery people who insist the two minutes it takes for salt to dissolve will somehow affect the hatch rate of your brine shrimp eggs.)
There are bubbles in the chamber on the right with eggs with shrimp hatching out of them, whirling around in the current. In the chamber on the left, little shrimp nauplii are swimming around, finding their way out of the exit to the tank. The two chambers make more sense when you compare them to a sink's u bend.
#63
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 26 November 2013 - 03:25 PM
I made a video where I walk through the in tank hatchery 
#64
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 26 November 2013 - 04:13 PM
Just to be the counter point here. Didn't you decide once before that constant, free feeding kept the Elassoma pretty much hidden all the time? Haven't you just recreated the blackworm scenario, wherein the fish will not see you as the giver of food and will therefor never come out of hiding (which I personally suspect they will not do anyway with those Dario in there, but that is the fun of the experiment).
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#65
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 26 November 2013 - 04:14 PM
Ah, good point. They seemed very enthusiastic about the grindal worms this morning, but I'll watch and see if that enthusiasm wanes.
#66
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 26 November 2013 - 04:57 PM
An easy problem to fix: Print a life-size photo of your head, laminate it, cut a small hole in your forehead for the BS escape port, and hide the BS hatchery behind it. Voila !! Erica is once again recognized by Elassoma as the food-provider. I can't wait to see that video!
Just to be the counter point here. Didn't you decide once before that constant, free feeding kept the Elassoma pretty much hidden all the time? Haven't you just recreated the blackworm scenario, wherein the fish will not see you as the giver of food and will therefor never come out of hiding (which I personally suspect they will not do anyway with those Dario in there, but that is the fun of the experiment).
#67
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 03 December 2013 - 11:38 AM
Update: The baby brine shrimp hatched for four days at 70 F and only 1-2 days at 85 F. Also, the grindal worms have not lost their appeal. And unfortunately, an elassoma evergladei is still in this tank and has colored up. I must have missed him when I was scooping them up and sending them back. Wah wah waaah.
#68
Guest_Orangespotted_*
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Posted 03 December 2013 - 04:37 PM
Hmmm, I hope they don't hybridize.
#69
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 03 December 2013 - 05:10 PM
They don't, or there wouldn't be two distinct species. Their ranges totally overlap: http://2.bp.blogspot...lassoma_map.png
Also, I have absolutely zero desire to discuss elassoma hybridization on this topic. If you want to start a new topic, feel free. I will be scooping this male out and putting him in another tank.
Also, I have absolutely zero desire to discuss elassoma hybridization on this topic. If you want to start a new topic, feel free. I will be scooping this male out and putting him in another tank.
#70
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 03 December 2013 - 07:40 PM
Since you have both species, why not set up a small tank, and test your theory. You should have an answer fairly quickly. I think it would be interesting. In a tank, it obviously would not prove anything about hybridization in the wild, but if they did produce offspring, then it could at least be possible in the wild. Then take your F1's, if you have any, and see if they are fertile.
#71
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 03 December 2013 - 08:25 PM
I would like to discourage further talk about hybridization on this topic. Please start a new topic if you want to discuss that. My fish are and will remain Elassoma gilberti from within half an hour's drive of Tallahassee, the type location for the species. As I said before, the elassoma evergladei male will be in a different tank. There has not been any spawning activity in this tank yet and all the fish are the adults I purchased from the vendor.
#73
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 03 December 2013 - 08:35 PM
And of course they cannot hybridize anyway, so you still certainly have pure stock. So no worries.
#74
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 08 December 2013 - 12:48 PM
I got some vinegar eels, and also a new camera.
I had been waiting for my old camera (Sanyo Xacti VPC PD2BK, totally awful, vertical lines on the images and all grainy) to break. As I went to take a video of something earlier in the day it froze, and would freeze within seconds of turning on and require the battery to be popped out to power down. So I checked up on the camera I'd been looking at, the Canon Elph 330 HS, and Best Buy had them in stock for $128 including tax. woo hoo. I'm off to pick up my new camera, and will then post pictures later of the awesome new vinegar eels I got from Anthony Looney at the AEoT local fish club meeting Friday evening. They are super awesome, and beat microworms in several key ways:
1. My microworms needed reculturing every two weeks. I had weekly maintenance reculturing the grosses two of my 5 cultures each weekend. It smelled bad and was annoying to have to do maintenance. Jay says that he's had this same vinegar eel culture going for over a year, no maintenance, just harvesting. That's awesome.
2. The worms stay suspended in the water column instead of sinking down to the bottom. My kitty litter substrate is easy to bury through, so if a worm settles on it, it's digging its way in and not coming out. These vinegar eels staying up in the water column longer is much better.
3. Cost: Both are dirt cheap to culture and keep going, so microworms and vinegar eels both win in that regard.
4. Space: Both don't take up tank space. I kept the microworms in palm sized tupperware plastic boxes. The vinegar eels are in a 1 gallon plastic pitcher with a lid that has a little snap on pouring spout. Jay says keeping it partially open keeps gnats out. I've also got coffee filter on hand if I want to cover the opening.
I had been waiting for my old camera (Sanyo Xacti VPC PD2BK, totally awful, vertical lines on the images and all grainy) to break. As I went to take a video of something earlier in the day it froze, and would freeze within seconds of turning on and require the battery to be popped out to power down. So I checked up on the camera I'd been looking at, the Canon Elph 330 HS, and Best Buy had them in stock for $128 including tax. woo hoo. I'm off to pick up my new camera, and will then post pictures later of the awesome new vinegar eels I got from Anthony Looney at the AEoT local fish club meeting Friday evening. They are super awesome, and beat microworms in several key ways:
1. My microworms needed reculturing every two weeks. I had weekly maintenance reculturing the grosses two of my 5 cultures each weekend. It smelled bad and was annoying to have to do maintenance. Jay says that he's had this same vinegar eel culture going for over a year, no maintenance, just harvesting. That's awesome.
2. The worms stay suspended in the water column instead of sinking down to the bottom. My kitty litter substrate is easy to bury through, so if a worm settles on it, it's digging its way in and not coming out. These vinegar eels staying up in the water column longer is much better.
3. Cost: Both are dirt cheap to culture and keep going, so microworms and vinegar eels both win in that regard.
4. Space: Both don't take up tank space. I kept the microworms in palm sized tupperware plastic boxes. The vinegar eels are in a 1 gallon plastic pitcher with a lid that has a little snap on pouring spout. Jay says keeping it partially open keeps gnats out. I've also got coffee filter on hand if I want to cover the opening.
#75
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 08 December 2013 - 02:08 PM
curious about nutritional value on these different cultures. I thought you were feeding your worms dog food. what are you feeding the vinegar worms?
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#76
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 08 December 2013 - 02:52 PM
I feed the grindal worms dog kibbles. The microworms ate oatmeal (rolled oats). These vinegar eels eat the infusoria in the vinegar water. There are two halves of an apple floating in there that I imagine the microfauna is eating.curious about nutritional value on these different cultures. I thought you were feeding your worms dog food. what are you feeding the vinegar worms?
What they're eating:
Adult elassoma: eating grindal worms, thawed frozen bloodworms (an insect larvae), ken's golden pearls (maybe, they're there), and baby brine shrimp (maybe, they're there).
Baby elassoma: eating vinegar eels and baby brine shrimp
Grindal worms: eating dog kibbles
Microworms: eating oatmeal, discontinued this food source 'cause it was work.
Vinegar eels: eating infusoria that eats vinegar and the apple.
This is theoretical. I don't have any fry yet.
Setup maintenance:
Daily: add grindal worms or a chopped up cube of bloodworms to the tank. Add vinegar eels to the fry tank.
Every two days: Refresh the grindal worms' kibbles.
Every five days: Refresh in-tank brine shrimp hatchery
Weekly: water changes, pouring the siphon water into the fry tank. Haven't started doing this, as I see no spawning dances just yet.
Biweekly: rinse poo out of bottom of grindal worm cultures.
Every three months: buy more bloodworms from Petsmart.
Once a year: buy more dog kibbles.
Ten years from now: might run out of vials of brine shrimp. I bought a pound and packaged it all up into dozens of glass dram vials I ordered off ebay. It's very convenient storage.
#77
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 08 December 2013 - 07:18 PM
Vinegar eel culture:
http://gallery.nanfa...er/050.JPG.html
It's half apple cider vinegar, half my tap water that I boiled and let cool. The floating thing is an apple half.
http://gallery.nanfa...er/050.JPG.html
It's half apple cider vinegar, half my tap water that I boiled and let cool. The floating thing is an apple half.
#78
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 10 December 2013 - 08:26 AM
This is absolutely unforgivable.
The betta is the 'canary' fish in the elassoma tank. The elassoma aren't always visible, but the betta is, so if something goes wrong for everyone in the tank, I'll be able to see it going wrong with the betta. That's the idea, anyway. So this picture, which shows three leeches adhered to and attacking the betta, means that the leeches are attacking my little elassoma gilberti. The leeches must die. I added salt to the tank. The ground immediately began to writhe in pain. I will add more salt later.
http://gallery.nanfa...kworms.jpg.html
The betta is the 'canary' fish in the elassoma tank. The elassoma aren't always visible, but the betta is, so if something goes wrong for everyone in the tank, I'll be able to see it going wrong with the betta. That's the idea, anyway. So this picture, which shows three leeches adhered to and attacking the betta, means that the leeches are attacking my little elassoma gilberti. The leeches must die. I added salt to the tank. The ground immediately began to writhe in pain. I will add more salt later.
http://gallery.nanfa...kworms.jpg.html
#79
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 10 December 2013 - 11:24 AM
The leeches may be eating Elassoma and Dario eggs too. This might be the first documentation of "blackworm leeches" (i dont know what else to call them; is there anybody at WFU that could ID them?) attaching to fish. Are they causing visible wounds where they feed? If you can get any better pics please do.
#80
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 10 December 2013 - 11:42 AM
This is the video I captured this morning when I got the photo I posted above.If you can get any better pics please do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iX9WXM3U0U&feature=youtu.be
The front glass is covered in algae because I don't like sticking my hand in there to clean it. My arm comes out with a leech or two on it
The water is cloudy because the leeches burrow. There are hundreds of them. Well, maybe not any more. When I left for work, the last I saw they were writhing on the ground in agony because I dumped a half cup of sea salt on them. The ones on the betta weren't looking so good, either, as she was at the bottom rubbing herself on the salt. She's no dummy
I will never, ever buy blackworms again. I officially hate them, now that they have lead to the deaths of my fish.
If I just hadn't ordered blackworms, this would be going so much better right now
I don't know why I didn't think of salt earlier. Now I feel stupid, because the elassoma gilberti male with the hole in its head seems now in retrospect to be something I could have and should have blamed definitively on the leeches. Why didn't I salt earlier? Who knows how many fish I have left now. And there's not currently any gilberti vendors I can order more from
!I am doing a census when I get home from work to find out exactly how many gilberti are left.
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