Elassoma gilberti: Round 2!

Have you seen any signs of breeding yet? This may be a good sign that elassoma and dario don't mix well...

Have you seen any signs of breeding yet? This may be a good sign that elassoma and dario don't mix well...

Eh, I'm not swayed to that opinion just yet. The tank is so large that the dario and elassoma rarely encounter one another. It's a 75 gallon tank with, at this point, only a handful of one inch fish left in it. I have seen elassoma gilberti and dario dario chill next to one another with no interaction.
I did see one colored up elassoma male start dancing around and then startle itself on a red dario dario male that was just cruising around. But it's not like the male dario threatened him or anything, more like it just surprised him. It reminded me of when you're reaching for silverware and you look where your hand's going and there's a spider there. ! You jump back. It's not like the spider threatened you, you were just startled. That's the double-take that the elassoma male did. But yeah, for the most part they don't really interact. They just ignore one another. Or if they're near one another, they don't acknowledge the other fish's presence. I don't think they speak the same language. It's better than the other fish I've mixed with the elassoma, though. At least the dario dario aren't five times bigger than the elassoma and actively frightening them into hiding. Or notorious egg eaters, like neon tetras are. It's hard to breed a fish with neon tetras in the tank.

Actually, that reminds me. I'm not convinced any of the dario dario are female. Maybe I have a bad eye for gender, or maybe I don't have any males. To be safe, I've placed an order just five seconds ago with Bob's Tropical Fish for 6 dario dario. I put a note in there to include some females. http://www.bobstropi...ario-dario.html
Sorta hard to produce fry with only males.

I'll do a search later today/tomorrow to make sure the male elassoma gilberti that died wasn't the last one. I don't think he was, but I'll check to make sure. My goal is to have both genders so that they can breed.

That spontaneous death thing is one of the oddities with elassoma versus most tropical fish. My guppies let me know when they're feeling bad. They suck at the surface, they get red on their tails if they're ammonia poisoned, they get ich spots, they gasp at the surface. I've never seen an elassoma with any of those. Well, I did see one hemorrhage one time, and one got dropsy. And one contracted the fuzzy white death. But the vast majority of the elassoma deaths I've seen are asymptomatic. Has anyone else had that experience?

I'll do a search later today/tomorrow to make sure the male elassoma gilberti that died wasn't the last one. I don't think he was, but I'll check to make sure. My goal is to have both genders so that they can breed.

Yup, females and males.

My old Elassoma move slower and get lethargic, feed less, and sometimes their color fades a week or so before they die. Some also bloat a bit - probably kidney failure. Being relatively sedantary fish, "lethargic" behavior is not as obvious as it is in a Lepomis or Cyprinella. I haven't noticed any active healthy-looking ones die suddenly.

Solid black male doing spawning dances! I glanced at the tank this morning from across the room and saw a red dario up near the front and a black elassoma in the back right, all prettied up for breeding. When I moved within 10 feet of the tank he fled, which might explain why I haven't seen him before. I'm going to start the every-weekend egg siphon, and we'll see if anything hatches in the 10 gallon tank

Aha, it was the big bad betta's fault. I took the betta out Thursday? Wednesday? and today (Friday) am seeing spawning dances on the front glass. They're so cute.

Side note: It's way easier to pick out the last elassoma evergladei or so now that the're all colored up. Example evergladei male:


http://gallery.nanfa...i male.jpg.html

I took a video of what an evergladei spawning dance is like. It's similar to gilberti's dance.
http://youtu.be/Nav8DPAuFJo

This is the last dude. I'll net him and put him in the 55 gallon tank with his brother/cousin/the other evergladei. There's about 500 bajillion snails in that tank (no, seriously) and it's stuffed to the brim with ceratophyllum, so the other evergladei is fat and dancing. I think this guy will like it in there, too.

Are you going to get female evergladei for that tank also? It would only make sense considering how well they are doing, and you could study the evergladei to check if they differ in behavior at all from gilberti.

Are you going to get female evergladei for that tank also? It would only make sense considering how well they are doing, and you could study the evergladei to check if they differ in behavior at all from gilberti.

That's an interesting suggestion. I could. But they'd be sharing the 55 gallon with guppies and heterandria formosa, and I wouldn't have anywhere to put their babies like I have the 10 gallon for the gilberti. The tank is solid ceratophyllum with lots of snails, so the adult evergladei are comfortable, that's true. (I have it set up that way in an attempt to maximize guppy fry survival.)

Here's a picture of the evergladei in the 55 gallon that's solid ceratophyllum:


gallery.nanfa.org/v/members/EricaWieser/elassoma+evergladei+in+55+gallon+tank.jpg.html

I'm not sure the babies would have a good chance at life. Based on my past experiences, I'm going to separate the elassoma fry from adult fish in the future.

Actually, that reminds me. I'm not convinced any of the dario dario are female. Maybe I have a bad eye for gender, or maybe I don't have any males. To be safe, I've placed an order just five seconds ago with Bob's Tropical Fish for 6 dario dario. I put a note in there to include some females. http://www.bobstropi...ario-dario.html
Sorta hard to produce fry with only males.

Update: Nine days later I contacted them and was like, 'Yo, I haven't heard from you, have you shipped them?'
They were like, 'It's been epic cold, lady'
I was like, 'true, a'ight'
They were like, 'we'll ship your fish now that it's not as cold'.
So they did. I got them today. I paid for six and got five, and one of them arrived dead. Pretty sure they're all male, too.

Just thought I'd share that with everybody Bob's Tropical Plants. Dario dario / scarlet badis. Yup.

I hope yours look better then the ones in Bob's video or you've got some more dead Dario in the near future.

So far no deaths other than the one that arrived that way.
Bob's staff said, "i am sorry for the miscount. it doesnt often happen but mistakes do happen. i can give a refund for the missing fish and a credit for the doa fish."
So that's fine.

Based on the really nice photos of dario here: http://www.venividiv...=34952&start=60 I didn't get any females in this batch, either. *sighs* Oh well. Guess I'll keep ordering them as I find vendors that sell them. Or they'll die out of old age and it'll be an elassoma-only tank. There are worse tanks to have.

Edit: Oh yeah, oops, I should probably tell you all how the elassoma are doing. They're doing great. I still see both males and females, although no fry yet. This morning I fed them mixed brine shrimp and bloodworms from a frozen cube from Petsmart. It's grindal worms every other morning, frozen cubes of bloodworms or mysis or brine shrimp in the mornings in between. Then grindal worms in the evening. I'm sprinkling in ken's golden pearls, too, in case the dario dario want to eat them and show the elassoma how. And even if they don't, it'll boost the snail population, which the elassoma do eat.

I took a closer look at exactly what fish were eating that food. This is a census of all the remaining elassoma in that 75 gallon tank.



Hmmm. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
I don't like the look of them. I've put them in the 55 gallon tank. I'm switching teams, ordering elassoma okefenokee for the 75 gallon tank (no one is selling elassoma gilberti right now online and honestly, I want a large group and I want to start fresh).
I bought 16 elassoma okefenokee from Sachs Aquaculture. They originated from the St. Johns River drainage (am I allowed to share that? That seems vague enough, sure) and have been captive bred for years. Yay captive breeding, 'cause there's nowhere else to get them right now.
All right, well, there are officially no elassoma in the 75 or the 10 gallon. When the okefenokee arrive, two pairs are going in the 10 gallon for 1-2 months because I miss fry

I will start a new topic when they get here next week.

So far no deaths other than the one that arrived that way.
Bob's staff said, "i am sorry for the miscount. it doesnt often happen but mistakes do happen. i can give a refund for the missing fish and a credit for the doa fish."
So that's fine.

And then they refunded me the cost of one fish.
Yeah, screw this project. I'm out. I'll see you all again in a week with a fresh start with elassoma okefenokee. Also, don't buy from Bob's Tropical Plants, they're the worst.

Guess you're moving the evergladei to the 55 after all, eh?

Guess you're moving the evergladei to the 55 after all, eh?

There are male evergladei in there, but there are no females. Unless that mystery fish in the video was a female evergladei.

Those three fish are:
Male evergladei
Male and female gilberti

Yeah. I guess I could have stuck the pair of gilberti in the 10 gallon. But starting a breeding colony with one pair seems like just not enough genetic diversity. It's totally unfounded in anything and just a superstition, but I don't feel comfortable working with a population based on one male and one female. What if one died? So, into the 55 gallon they went, and I ordered 16 fish.

I added some salt to test a theory and the ground erupted into thousands of leeches. Gross. I'm gonna break down this tank completely before the okefenokee go in it.

Those leeches seem to be inescapable.

Those leeches seem to be inescapable.

Yeah, this current population seems to be more salt tolerant as well. Oh joy.

I have removed all the dario dario to the 10 gallon tank. My plan is to go to Walmart and buy some fresh kitty litter. I'll drain the tank and remove all the plants to a bucket. Then I'll finish draining the tank completely and scoop out and throw away all the kitty litter. I'll dry the tank for a day or so (removing my filter sponge to another tank) or brine-soak it, haven't decided yet. Both have failed me in the past. These leeches appear not to have an egg stage, though, which might make them easier to kill. So, anyway, I'll decontaminate the tank, add fresh kitty litter, salt dip the plants and re add them, dechlorinate and temperature match the incoming water, then add the filter sponges back in. The fish should arrive Thursday, but there's no rush. They've got a 10 gallon they can go into.

I'll document the build on a new topic, which I'll call Elassoma okefenokee or something. I guess this is a new chance to install the seven mesh plastic canvas tank dividers, but I have no desire to try that again. I'm just gonna put two pairs in the 10 gallon every two months. And no, I'm not adding dario dario to the new elassoma okefenokee setup. I'm done messing around. For all the years I've insisted they don't have to be, I'm resigned to elassoma tanks being species-only tanks now. 'Cause it's so, so easy to go from 20 fish to 2 in only a few months. They're too precious to squander. Get a stably breeding population first, then toy around with species combinations.

On the positive side, I can see this as a learning experience. I'm never recommending blackworms for elassoma again. Live aquatic foods come with live aquatic hitch-hikers. Long live the grindal worms and frozen bloodworms.