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Elassoma okefenokee

Started by Guest_Erica Lyons_* , Jan 21 2014 10:46 AM

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#21 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 11:13 PM

As per request, here are some updated pictures.

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I swirled the plants around in the bucket tank and saw adult fish still alive in there, so that's a good sign.
I don't see any fry yet. The elassoma will have been in the 10 gallon for a month this Sunday, so I'm looking close.

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#22 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 07:03 PM

The 75 gallon tank has L144 plecos, yellow jack endlers, and I'm hoping to put skiffia francesae (Rio Teuchitlan) in there, as well. None of them pose a threat to adult elassoma, and the young have their own tanks, so that's not a problem. Having fish in the main tank at all times (even when all the adult elassoma are on loan to breeding tanks for a month) is important because excess fish flakes keep the microfauna population up. By microfauna I mean whatever these little critters are. Here's a video. I think those are copepods, and I see something that could be moina or daphnia in there, too. It's hard to say without a microscope.

youtu.be/7EMXYIWPN9w

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#23 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 07:20 PM

I'm so so so excited! I didn't want to say anything in case it didn't happen, but just a few minutes ago I got the most awesome stand! It's a vertical stand with room for four 15 gallon tanks one on top of another.

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The white stand under the 10 gallon tank has been emptied and all of its contents (grindal worm cultures, microworms) moved to the stand under the 55 gallon tank.
I've still got to find three more tanks, but I'll keep you all up to date. It'll be so nice to have little elassoma spawning tanks available.

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#24 Guest_Yeahson421_*

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:08 PM

Nice, 15 gallons are fantastic. Sounds like a great setup!

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#25 Guest_Joshaeus_*

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:44 PM

Could you make one or more of those 3 tanks L. ommata tanks?

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#26 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:52 PM

Could you make one or more of those 3 tanks L. ommata tanks?

Technically, yes, I could. My tap water is 0 DH and acidy neutral. Add some peat and voila! leptolucania ommata tank. It remains a possibility.

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#27 Guest_Joshaeus_*

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:51 AM

They would probably breed without the acidic water (zimmerman has bred them in his PH 8 water, and I think wolfe said he has had 10 gallon colony tanks of these fish), but that's nice to know!

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#28 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 04:08 PM

BABY FISHIES!

yay! Confirmed fry spotted in the 10 gallon tank.

Tomorrow I'm buying a 15 gallon tank from a friend. I'll put the parents in there. >.<!

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#29 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 06:30 PM

Pictures of the first elassoma okefenokee fry

I took these with my Canon Elph 330 HS camera.

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http://gallery.nanfa...adsize.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...oomin1.jpg.html

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http://gallery.nanfa...adsize.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...oomin2.jpg.html

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http://gallery.nanfa...adsize.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...oomin3.jpg.html

Often it's said, "If you want to see fry, feed them before you can see them". The expression's supposed to mean that sometimes fry are too small to see but that doesn't mean they're not there and not hungry. I started feeding the tank microworms yesterday and literally the day after I started feeding them, now I see them. I wonder if that's because they're coming to the front of the tank now to eat (I add food right up at the front glass) or because now my eye has something microworm sized to focus on and use for comparison. You can see because I included the zoom out photo; it's hard to spot the fry in the strands of ceratophyllum. But, either way, it looks like they are there and they are eating. Here's a photo of the fry's stomach, which doesn't look completely flat. It's probably finding something to eat. It's not a really fat fry like I like to see, though, so I'll add microworms every day and vinegar eels, too.

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http://gallery.nanfa...tomach.jpg.html

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#30 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 04:57 PM

I scooped out half of the water from the 10 gallon tank. Just scooping the water was a great way to isolate fry; I removed fully a dozen and more during the scooping process. Then I put the plants in the bucket. With half the water and all the ceratophyllum gone, I easily caught and removed 12 adults from the 10 gallon tank. I'm not so good at counting but I think means none of the fish originally shipped to me have died yet. (some are in the bucket tank). Then I moved the 10 gallon, moved the white stand, put this vertical stand in its place, and put the new 15 gallon and the old 10 gallon on the vertical stand.

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I poured the 10 gallon's water back into it once it was on the stand, and I see lots of fry survived. They are different sizes. Moving the tank and putting it in this stand probably covered whatever eggs were in there with silt, which is sad. But the hatched fry seems to have survived the transfer all right. I'm going to feed them with microworms and vinegar eels and see how it goes. I've still got to work out a way to secure this tank to the wall before I add more tanks.

The last time I tried raising fry in a 10 gallon tank, duckweed smothered all the plants in the tank and the ammonia spike killed a lot of the fry. This time, there is no duckweed or surface cover plants to kill the other plants. That's what worked the first time (this is the third).

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#31 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:39 PM

I've been looking at the bucket tank, trying to figure out how to tell if there are fry in the bucket tank. Then I said, "D'oh", scooped some of the water out, and in two scoops I got something like five fry.

Note the copepod next to the fry:
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http://gallery.nanfa...t tank.jpg.html

I'm gonna just let them hang out there for a while. The parents don't seem to be eating them, there's another tank emptying planned for the vertical stand next week that might kill some fry so there's no reason to put them there yet, 3" tall x 20" wide bucket tanks are better than standard tank dimensions anyway, and their bellies are full. Seems fine. *shrugs* I shook some vinegar eels in, there ya go.

This is the bucket tank I'm talking about, by the way. (picture from page 1 of this topic; there's more ceratophyllum and ricciocarpus natans and lemna gibba now but that's about the only difference)
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#32 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:00 PM

My chinchilla Fifel got out last night and was wet on her paws and belly. I checked, and there were drops of water on the sides of the bucket tank. She must have hopped in (and then right back out). Adult fish, [the majority of the] fry, and chinchilla are all fine. I will say it was easier than normal getting her to go back in her room. She had had enough with exploring, lol.

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#33 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:05 PM

I checked on the fish in the 10 gallon and they're doing well. There are fry ranging from well developed heads and stomachs to just a pair of dots on a stick. I am feeding both microworms and vinegar eels around every other day. I prefer the vinegar eels, as they are aquatic and know how to swim, meaning they stay suspended in the water column. The microworms are not bad either, though, since one of the natural places for elassoma fry to hide is on the bottom where the microworms settle.

I can't see anything in the bucket tank, and as a result it's getting less love and less frequent feedings than the 10 gallon. It's a totally different surface area to volume ratio, though, so I expect the copepods to continue to breed well. That population will be mostly copepod-fed and they'll probably be fine.

The adults in the 15 gallon are decidedly not pleased to be in such bare conditions. I'll add more plants after I secure the stand to the wall this weekend, which might or might not involve removing the tanks. I could stick them in the 75 gallon tank, and just might do that for all of them except two breeding pairs. Oh, the 75 continues to have copepods galore. I should take a picture of the zucchini slices I add to the tank to feed the L144 plecos. They are just covered in the round daphnia-like things. It's like someone sprinkled pepper on an egg.

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#34 Guest_Nativefishnic_*

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 01:40 AM

Your setup is incredible. Is your stand metal framed and wood on the outer? And do you know how the copepods got in your tank?

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#35 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:06 AM

Your setup is incredible. Is your stand metal framed and wood on the outer?

Thank you. Yes, it's an aluminum frame (based on its light-ness) with thin particle board.

And do you know how the copepods got in your tank?

No, but in my opinion it's not about inoculation, it's about population expansion. It is not uncommon for aquariums with live plants to have one or two copepods. The trick is to breed their population up, which is done by feeding them and giving them a lot of surface area to live on.

Plant tissue is an example of something that provides the necessary surface area habitat. This is a video of my previous setup, which is actually this same 75 gallon tank about a year ago. It was saltwater, with caulerpa prolifera, synchiropus spendidus, and hippocampus zosterae. It was a good opportunity to practice culturing copepods. I prepared microworms as a backup food for if the copepod population got low (baby brine shrimp are another alternative), but you can see that wasn't a problem:
http://youtu.be/k9bOYmBI-mo
https://www.youtube....h?v=k9bOYmBI-mo
It is my opinion that the freshwater people and the saltwater people should talk to one another more, as they each have skills that benefit the other. In general, only freshwater people raise microworms for some reason, even though they stay alive in saltwater for three days and both synchiropus splendidus and hippocampus zosterae will eat them. And in general, the art of copepod culture is limited to saltwater refugium keepers, even though they are very useful for freshwater fish, especially fry.

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#36 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:38 PM

Oh, I forgot to say that I'm leaving the light on 24/7 in all the elassoma tanks right now. There's no particular reason to do that, but it's worth noting that they don't seem to mind. In the rodent culture industry it's polite to the animals to do circadian ish rhythms; 12 hours light, 12 hours dark. I don't think these fish care. Do they care? I don't know. There's enough plant tissue in there that if they want to find a dark spot they can just dive down, maybe hide in the terra cotta flower pot cave. The vinegar eels are much much easier to see against the surface tension with the light behind them, though, so I figured light on helps.

Oh, I should mention: the "add food see fry" phenomenon keeps happening. I'm like, "Eh, I don't see any fry." Then I drain some vinegar eels through a coffee filter and shake the coffee filter off in the water. The vinegar eels start wiggling like crazy, they're great, and all of a sudden these little ambush predator fry start moving. The fry have trained me well. If I want to see them, I have to give them food first. When they're moving I can almost count one per inch.

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#37 Guest_Nativefishnic_*

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 05:10 AM

Have you fingered out how you where going to mount it to the wall? I bet if you got some ( kind of like what you would use to make a book shelves. Can't think of what they are called at the moment ) metal and bolted those to each side at the top and then bolted that to the ( at least one in a stud for sure ) wall that would more than enough.

No, but in my opinion it's not about inoculation, it's about population expansion. It is not uncommon for aquariums with live plants to have one or two copepods. The trick is to breed their population up, which is done by feeding them and giving them a lot of surface area to live on.

I've been trying to figure out the best way to get an established group in my tanks. Think going out with a dip net and scooping some up and putting into the tanks. Hopefully that will work.

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#38 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 04:07 PM

Have you fingered out how you where going to mount it to the wall? I bet if you got some ( kind of like what you would use to make a book shelves. Can't think of what they are called at the moment ) metal and bolted those to each side at the top and then bolted that to the ( at least one in a stud for sure ) wall that would more than enough.

That is the dilemma at the moment. The black particle board is not held on to the aluminum frame sturdily enough to secure it to the wall. If I had my way I'd drill into the wall and then secure it with a strap or two around the shelf, but that probably wouldn't fly with the significant other and also I don't have those tools handy. We're currently still puzzling about how to secure this to the wall, so if anyone has any suggestions, we'd consider them. I don't want to add more tanks without first securing it.

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#39 Guest_Yeahson421_*

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 06:26 PM

The only option I see is an anchor screw into a stud. In reality, it wouldn't be a big repair if you decided to move the rack. Just a little gap filler, maybe some paint, and you're done.

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#40 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 06:47 PM

The only option I see is an anchor screw into a stud. In reality, it wouldn't be a big repair if you decided to move the rack. Just a little gap filler, maybe some paint, and you're done.

Yes, I do plan to drill into a stud. It's just that the particle board around the aluminum frame isn't really secured to the aluminum frame anything other than decoratively.
We're probably going to end up using furniture wall straps somehow.