32 replies to this topic

[littlen]

I know of some professionals in the aquarium industry that routinely keep many of their FW exhibits at 1-2ppt year round for the larger exhibits displaying various basses/sunnies, gar, cats, sturgeon, trout,, esox, No issues thus far.

[littlen]

I do not see the foundation for your statement that "a dose of salt would have added to the collecting stress and other problems would have cropped up". How have your experiences using salt to transport fish supported your claim? Your previous statement does not support such a claim. I am a supporter of adding salt even though I routinely do not when transporting fish. It it my hope that others who do will chime in.

As I just said, I do not transport fish with salt. The 2 main reasons for that is 1) I don't ever think to pack it. 2) I have had great success transporting fish for many years without salt. However, I attribute my success to safe and wise transporting techniques. Those techniques being; I maintain appropriate stocking levels in transport bins, bags, buckets, coolers, etc. I provide excellent aeration--to include direct O2 injection if necessary to maintain a good DO concentration. I will routinely provide large water changes--50% or more if the water has become cloudy/dirty, etc. I will provide temperature control--mainly ice packs to keep fish on the cooler side & to keep DO up. It is likely that most folks do not provide this level of care, and that is ok because whatever they're doing (or not doing) is working for them. This goes to show that salt isn't always necessary, but I will not admit or support a claim that adding salt increases stress and poses other problems. I'm not saying that you didn't do everything I listed AND STILL had some sort of outbreak. By no means is anything/everything I listed going to 100% prevent an outbreak----but they will greatly reduce the chances--as will adding salt!

There is also no evidence that shows that the mosquito fish was responsible for the rest of your fish coming down with something. Being that the mosquito fish was collected in the same waters as some of your other fish--it was exposed to the same pathogens as the fish that showed symptoms. Any one of the [already] infected and stressed fish could have shed the pathogen and infected the rest. I do not feel that removing the fish AND doing water changes cured your fish. Simply doing the water changes did.

You also have a contradiction in two of your posts: #23 and #25. In #23 you say, "Keeping a constant low salt level that does not fluctuate would not be stressful, mimics natural conditions and is good defense against freshwater parasites". Yet in #25 you say, "Even though the fish came from a habitat with little or no natural salt...." So which is it? Are there low levels of natural salts in freshwater environments, or aren't there? Truth is there are low levels of salts [other than NaCl] in freshwater bodies of water. There are a lot of posts on this forum dealing with salt and ion loss in stressed fish. I highly recommend glancing them over. Also going back to post #23, if you say that "a constant low salt level....would not be stressful" then why do you also say that salt adds to stress? That is a contradiction. So again I ask, which is it?

I do not think it is fair to make a claim that salt does nothing to aid in fish transport and could also cause other problems during transport. This is not necessarily an attack on you personally, but rather your bold claim(s) It is my hope that you don't take this the wrong way and we can have a constructive conversation. You disputed some previous posts and this is my response. Simple as that.

[littlen]

Mikez, first off, we do not need to flex our "52 years of fishkeeping" muscle here. Fishkeeping, and the length of time one has been doing it does not make one better at it than someone with fewer years. I understand it is the go-to excuse many use to try to make their explanation(s) more credible. So thank you for that immaterial point. The question at hand is, does the addition of salt to a stressed fish during transport help? Maybe you're completely overlooking the fact that the fish are already extremely stressed from the capture, handling, and containment in a bucket. Not because the salt was added. Excess mucus is being produced and lost, natural body salts are being lost, respiration is elevated, and temperature and other water parameters are constantly changing. Salt helps to alleviate some of these issues. You have no data (other than observations) to support your claim that salt added to a transport container does nothing and adds to the problem. From previous topics on this forum, it is my understanding that many others will dispute that readily. Myself and others have firsthand experience and success using salt--and didn't just read what some "internet expert" said.

Comparing stressed (tropical) fish in a retail setting to wild-caught natives is a poor example. For starters, most tropicals come in with a much higher pathogen load than a fresh caught native. Additionally, the retail tropicals have endured far more stressors in their trip from location "X" (usually overseas) to John Doe's living room tank. At this point, said tropical fish are already severely immunocompromised and will not be cured by the addition of salt. So it is no surprise that you've dealt with folks who had [an already sick fish when purchased] and tried to treat it with salt at home to no avail.


My comment of "salt isn't always necessary" is not what you and I are disputing. You are saying flat out, salt does not help, and causes more problem. I am saying the exact opposite--salt does help and certain does not hurt if used correctly and to an acceptable level for the species. I have used salt to treat stressed fish, and have used it for minor disease outbreak with success. Do not try to tell me that I "see your point and just don't want to accept it". My assumption is that you most likely have some difficulty properly dosing salt to a tolerable level when treating stressed fish during transport and HAVE caused them further stress. Again, my observations show that even if salt doesn't remedy an outbreak, or reduce stress, it does not hurt the animal. But without any scientific data and testing to support that claim, I guess my words are just as empty as yours. You are right though, excess salt/overdosing certainly does damage to freshwater fish.

Observations are great. Unfortunately scientific theories, principles, and truths are not formed on observation alone. So without experimentation and backing data, your claims of 52 years of observation are irrelevant. Furthermore, they do not equate to you being able to state that salt does not help and causes more problems. That is just your opinion and not a fact. My concern and issue is that you are trying to pass your opinions off as fact.

Mosquitofish, or any fish for that matter that nips at the fins of another, does not cause infection simply by the act of removing fin or flesh. In a healthy, pathogen free system, infection will not occur. So the fact that your mosquitofish caused a site for infection supports the fact that pathogens (bacteria or fungus most likely) were already present. What I am telling you is that had salt already been present, the "white fuzzy" stuff you noticed on the tails would very likely have not developed. Even if the mosquitofish remained and continued to nip. In many instances salt severely depresses or halts infection. Your inability to accept salt as a preventative medicine in this instance lead to the infections you saw. I am glad that you did not suffer any losses, and that the remedy of frequent water changes worked. But I do wonder how many fish you've lost over your 52 year stint that could have been avoided if you weren't so opposed to salt. The honest answer is that we'll never know but we each have our opinions.

I assume the fish in question both you and I are talking about transporting are groups such as sunnies, shiners, darters, and other such strictly freshwater/land-locked species. That being said, there are still natural salts in pure freshwater. When I use the term "salts" I'm not just talking about sodium chloride. There are other trace elements and salts at very low, but detectable, levels. Would I be able to bring a refractometer and get a reading of 2ppt? No. But there are salts. Stressed fish lose these salts, trace minerals, ion, etc. and can succumb to infection even easier. Keeping the fish in a transport container with an unnatural, but tolerable (~2ppt) level of salt allows there to be a higher concentration of salt outside of their body. The principle of osmosis tells us that because of this the dissolved salts in the water will permeate back into the fish. Thus a healthier, less stressed fish capable of fighting disease better than the same fish in the same container without salt.

Again, I have and will continue to use salt when necessary. Primarily for disease suppression and prevention. My ramblings about not using salt are only to show that if you can successfully reduce stress levels by your husbandry techniques during transport, you don't have to use it. In your case, despite your apparent best efforts using all the techniques I described, you still had an outbreak. My sympathy lies with the fish that they had to experience an infection because despite 52 years of experience, you refused to simply add a little salt to prevent a completely preventable infection.

I'm sure we can agree that all wild caught fish are going to have some natural load of pathogens in or on them. You and I clearly do our best to reduce stress naturally (aka, without additives) by manipulating the environment within the transportation container. We do so in the hopes that the fish does not become compromised in such a way that it, or others become infected with the already present nasties. The addition of salt can and does help. It's that simple. There are many factors that are possible that would still allow for infection to take hold despite the addition of salt. (Ex. if the fish lost a lot of scales being stuck in the seine, a large or deep open wound, etc.). Salt is not the cure-all, miracle treatment some claim it to be, but in a very basic sense, in a typical collecting situation, it does help. There are always rebels who oppose popular belief--even when it has been tried and proven. I'm glad you have had personal success without the usage of salt. But in the future try not to speak in absolutes when you have nothing but years of observation to back your claim. I would have gladly read over this thread and not thought twice about anything if you had stated all of this as simply a matter of opinion based on years of observation and experience. That's what most of us do, professional and hobbyist alike.

I am agreed to drop this discussion if we can both admit that our observations are anecdotal and our opinions are just that--opinions....regardless that I sit with the majority on this issue and you do not.

[littlen]

Mike, you are the one who alluded to the fact that there was possibly an infection; "most of the shiners had ragged, fuzzy looking tails". Perhaps a better selection of words would have cleared that up---tattered, damaged, etc. I'm sorry but when someone says their fish has any sort of "fuzz" on their body, it is usually a sign of fungal infection.

Even if that is what you meant, the fins were damaged, but there was no sign of secondary infection, salt STILL aids in preventing secondary infections when there is an open wound. Missing scales and/or damaged fins.

I'm amazed that you were able to see the teeth on your mosquitofish used to injure your shiners. Must be a new species of gambusia with extraordinarily large teeth. You again make another claim, "Add medicine where it's not needed, to already stressed fish, the fish die." What proof do you have? Specifically dealing with salt when used as a medicine.....or any medicine for that matter. Please show me data, evidence, or scientific journals that support such a ridiculous statement. What makes me feel better is either finding and reading literature, or performing experiments myself to support my suspicions. You use the word fact, yet I am concerned you are missing what it means for something to be fact.

It doesn't bother me that you choose not to use salt. It is a shame that you choose to be ignorant about its beneficial qualities. I refuse to continue this discussion with someone who thinks they know better than everyone on here and won't accept the possibility that he might be wrong. Good luck with your fishkeeping.