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Florida saltwater ID's

Started by Guest_FishyJackson_* , Oct 14 2014 12:53 PM

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33 replies to this topic

#21 Guest_FishyJackson_*

Guests

Posted 10 November 2014 - 10:39 AM

I don't think E. gula can be ruled out from those two unless you get a good photo of the premaxillary pit. I think it is safe to say the upper one is not the fish in your original photo given the shape and fin color and is probably gula. The second one....don't know

Thanks for input Mzokan

After looking again at these pics, I think the original fish (post#3) is E. Harengulus, and I think there's decent chance the fish I have at home (the fish on bottom in post#19) is the same fish. Even if it isnt, I think they are both E. Harengulus. The fish on the top is rounder like E. Gula.

I'm going to take another look tonight at the other pics I have of the original fish and try to make some determinations. I'll crop a better photo of the original. Dont want to push my luck with the DNA people if it's just another E. Gula, so further pre-DNA research is still required.

One thing I meant to note before, the headshot of the mojarra in post#3 is inadmissible evidence, as it was taken 2 hours prior to the other pic in post#3, so it may have been a different fish. Either way it didnt prove useful anyway.

The 2k14 Mojarra Identification Saga has not yet reached it's climactic conclusion.

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#22 Guest_FishyJackson_*

Guests

Posted 11 November 2014 - 10:04 AM

Here's another couple pics of the potential Tidewater Mojarra, it does appear to be same species as fish in bottom pic of post#19

mojarry.jpg 136.51KB 0 downloads

Mojarra crop.jpg 71.54KB 0 downloads

The fish below was proven to be E. Gula. The fish above appears to be slightly less rounded than E. Gula but I really can't tell if there's any difference... these damn conniving mojarras.

IMG_1056.JPG 65.82KB 0 downloads

If anyone thinks these are different species let me know and I'll prob get DNA test done because I dont like unsolved fish mysteries, I'll check back in the thread a few times this week to see if anyone thinks so. If not, it shallst remain a mystery...

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#23 mattknepley

NANFA Member

Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 11 November 2014 - 01:38 PM

Can't help you with the mojarra mystery, but major props to Mom for saving, salting, drying, and transporting that fish for you. Not a lotta moms gonna go that far for their child's fish questions, methinks. Major NANFA cred to her!

Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

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#24 Guest_mzokan_*

Guests

Posted 11 November 2014 - 04:24 PM

I would say the body is slender enough in these pics to indicate it is probably not E. gula, and a good candidate for E. argenteus or E. harengulus.

Try out this key next time you catch one: ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/009/y4162e/y4162e16.pdf
second part of species info here: ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/009/y4162e/y4162e17.pdf

Don't worry too much if you don't figure out this one, harengulus are really common in bays and creek mouths down there and you will get another (hopefully larger one). Try near the passes or along the beach for argenteus. According to the species information following the key I've linked, some of the other species: lefroyi, jonesi, melanopterus and havana are absent or rare in your part of the Gulf, the first three are common on the east coast though.

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#25 Guest_FishyJackson_*

Guests

Posted 12 November 2014 - 08:37 AM

Can't help you with the mojarra mystery, but major props to Mom for saving, salting, drying, and transporting that fish for you. Not a lotta moms gonna go that far for their child's fish questions, methinks. Major NANFA cred to her!

Agreed Matt- she earned herself a big box of her favorite Tate's cookies. My dad was supposed to serve as the designated fish salter/transporter but he couldn't make the trip down there, and she did a very adequate job handling business.

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#26 Guest_FishyJackson_*

Guests

Posted 12 November 2014 - 08:48 AM

Mzokan- As always your knowledge is appreciated, didnt realize Argenteus was in the mix too here. Hopefully next time I'll be able indentify using the head pit key. That said, since we are pretty certain this is different fish I'm going to go for the DNA test if they don't mind doing it again. It's going to be months before I get down to Sarasota again and if the weather is bad I may not even get to catch any of these fish, so might as well get this case solved if possible. If the DNA people charge me this time I won't bother sending it in though, since it sounds like Harengulus is quite common down there

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#27 Guest_FishyJackson_*

Guests

Posted 12 November 2014 - 11:27 AM

The DNA lady thinks it's hilarious that I have another little Mojarra to send in but said she can't do it for free anymore after this haha...I'll post back when results are in

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#28 FishyJackson

NANFA Guest

Long Island

Posted 25 November 2014 - 09:00 AM

The results are in...Drumroll please...

20141125_0850501.jpg 67.22KB 0 downloads

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#29 mzokan

NANFA Guest

Posted 25 November 2014 - 09:43 PM

Congrats on the new fish! I'll admit I was a bit worried that it would come out gula again, mojarras are really hard

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#30 FishyJackson

NANFA Guest

Long Island

Posted 26 November 2014 - 04:37 PM

thanks Mzokan, I was pretty confident it wasn't Gula but I thought it would be Tidewater Mojarra. Looking forward to seeing if there's other Mojarra species back there next time I go down. I better figure out the top of the head ID method this time though..

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#31 mzokan

NANFA Guest

Posted 30 November 2014 - 09:08 AM

Next time you send a sample to them, check whether they have a sample of harengulus or not. argenteus and harengulus were considered the same species for a long time. In fish collections you often find jars of harengulus marked as argenteus. So it is possible they cannot call a fish a harengulus because they don't have a sample, or that their "argenteus" is actually a harengulus.

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#32 gerald

Global Moderator

Wake Forest, North Carolina

Posted 02 December 2014 - 12:06 PM

With experience you might be able to find some reliable characteristics for distinguishing fresh-caught specimens that aren't in the standard ID keys. ID keys are developed principally from preserved specimens, and tend to ignore features that disappear after preservation. The pattern of iridescence around the eye in banded vs bluespotted sunfish is a good example - a pretty good character, but only for fresh fish. Fritz's SC book is the only place I've seen it in print. There may be similar fresh-only characteristics for mojarras. Take lots of pics and compare.

Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel

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#33 FishyJackson

NANFA Guest

Long Island

Posted 05 December 2014 - 02:59 PM

Next time you send a sample to them, check whether they have a sample of harengulus or not. argenteus and harengulus were considered the same species for a long time. In fish collections you often find jars of harengulus marked as argenteus. So it is possible they cannot call a fish a harengulus because they don't have a sample, or that their "argenteus" is actually a harengulus.

Well I hope that wasn't the case. I'm pretty sure that this was the last time I can use their services for free, and it's like $180 or something like that otherwise which even I wouldn't pay haha. But I'm pretty confident it was Argenteus

With experience you might be able to find some reliable characteristics for distinguishing fresh-caught specimens that aren't in the standard ID keys. ID keys are developed principally from preserved specimens, and tend to ignore features that disappear after preservation. The pattern of iridescence around the eye in banded vs bluespotted sunfish is a good example - a pretty good character, but only for fresh fish. Fritz's SC book is the only place I've seen it in print. There may be similar fresh-only characteristics for mojarras. Take lots of pics and compare.

Next time I go down there I'm going to take better pics. Maybe I'll be able to tell if it's a Spotfin Mojarra simply by the spots on the fin

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#34 Mysteryman

NANFA Guest

Posted 13 December 2014 - 06:04 PM

Don't Skates often have transparent areas on their snouts and wings? I know that they tend to have much pointier snouts and thicker, shorter tails, often sporting dorsal fins and even a caudal fin. Skates are also smaller, daintier, and more diamond-shaped.