21 replies to this topic

[guyswartwout]

Hi,

I have finally set up a native tank in my garage. I think I would like to put a few darters in there, and I have become quite enamored with some of the shiners from recent snorkeling. There is only about 20 gallons of water in this tank. An artistic principal says not to raise the water line, but I'd kind of like to have more water. What do people think about the setup?

I don't know what to do about livestock. There are so many darters, and no aquarium guide to darter keeping. I guess the best question would be "are there any species to avoid, because they don't adapt well, or have other undesirable attributes?"

And thirdly, what about shiners? I love the local crescent shiners and rosyside dace. Is there enough water for a few darters and some shiners? Are shiners OK with a few, or better with a school? Are there species to prefer or avoid?

[al10]

Looks good, but why wouldn't you have as much water as possible? Unless you are planning to keep a species that needs land you can fill the tank up to 1/2" below the rim(if your tank is bouilt well, and isn't cracked) but after I would also post how many gallons, what equipment, lighting, water paremeters(ph, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) and where abouts your located.
Oh and I love therock btw.

[Michael Wolfe]

Hey Guy! I think your tank looks good with the substrate depth different at either end. And I like your tree trunk (if that's what it is) on the right.

I would go with more water and the shiners. They really do add some motion and excitement to your tank. And if you have access to a place to get crescents, I think they would be great (and they will be fine with just a handfull, they do not need a huge school.

Some darters are harder to keep than others, but the main ones I personally would avoid are greensides (they need too many snails and get too big), tangerines (also too big), stuff like that. Other than that, you really have a bunch of good ones out your way.

[gerald]

Darters: Tesselated, Roanoke, and Shield/Chainback are common ones in the Roanoke & James R basins that adapt well to aquarium life. Fantails tend to hide a lot IME, and are more territorial, but the others are pretty sociable once they settle in and learn who brings the food. It's tricky to get enough food to the darters in a tank with shiners/chubs/dace. You'll need to feed often if you keep darters and minnows together. I prefer to keep darters by themselves, or with other slow-feeders like suckers. My banded darters from the convention in June have grown up and are doing well (their only tankmate is one big old pygmy sunfish).

[guyswartwout]

Thanks folks for the reply!

al10,
The rocks came out of the Roanoke River, along with some really nice snails.
Initially, I was concerned about the broken top brace. It's a 25 year old 55 gal. I found at Goodwill.
Since I wanted to set up a riparium, I was OK with the top brace, but I can fix it. It appears unlikely that my immersed plants will grow tall, so technically I am free to increase the water volume. There is that pesky artistic consideration though.

Michael,
I thought you were eating a cookie there, but I see it's a sunfish selfie.
I've been thinking about our tank/pond conversation quite a bit, as well as the Chattahoochee River. I was fortunate to spend a day there with Meredith while on a trip, and surprised to see people catching trout right and left. Do you make it up there much?

You and Gerald are offering great advice.
I think I will proceed cautiously, and add shiners and more water in the future, maybe. That will give me more time to experiment with different plants.

I've only been out twice locally, but I am planning to make more time for it. So far I have only seen the Roanoke, Longfin, and a logperch. Without Derick Wheaton's help, I'd have never figured out the longfin, as its coloration was, well, lacking; and I mistook it for a stripeback.

The tree trunk is actually an algae turf scrubber - the return from my bucket filter, and another reason to keep the lower water level for now. There's also a pump behind the boulder providing additional current. I like the tree trunk idea though. I'll keep it in mind for the future.

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, that changes my answer some... Gerald is right about the darter shiner mix... I like shiners a lot, so I am willing to fight with their greed... but, if you add his good advice to the filtration thingy and the broken brace, then I would lean in the other direction...

make sure the plants are well rooted and only in the back of the tank... then add a little more water (while still maintaining your aesthetic) and a power head and blast the water along the front of the tank and go logperch! I love those guys and with a couple of them and a handful of other local darters you would have a great snorkel experience without having to drive anywhere or even get wet!

then of course, you will need to get another tank for the shiners...!!!?!

[al10]

Oh ok, humm, maybe increasing to half full and get a few aquatic plant pots and suction cups and I know how to make a pot for a semi aquatic plants, also I would try logperches and sailfin mollies or a small colony of least killifiah.

[mattknepley]

I like it. I agree that more water is nice, but I think your artistic principles are on to something, too. Tanks set up like this give me the impression I'm out laying in a stream with a mask on and my head half-submerged; a real "you are in the element" kind of vibe for me. Plus, they allow for interesting hard scaping and emergent/floating plant options.

As for darters and shiners, you've already gotten good advice...

[keepnatives]

Guy, I like the look as it is for some Roanoke darters and some log perch. (not Roanoke) I'd be tempted to double the depth as well as increase the substrate on half the tank. Create some major flow at the shallower water end and keep the other half more like a small pool, some mt redbellies would enjoy that

[mattknepley]

Since we're back to throwing unnamed B.o.D.s from Kentucky under the bus, it seems maybe you could really personalize this tank. Might I suggest a cracked heater for a tropical tank, set to its very minimum temperature? You know, just enough to get a little juice running through the water. I know from experience that just such a situation is capable of delivering a jolting impression that will leave you stunned should you accidentally touch the water. Couldn't get any more personalized than that...

[Sean Phillips]

Very nice looking tank. Others have seemed to given you the basic rundown on darters however I have slightly different experience. My very first darters were a pair of greensides and they lived great up until a few months ago when they died from Cyanobacterial infections and I was only feeding them about half a dozen snails a month. I'm on to a new pair now and I'm not giving them snails and they're doing amazing. I might start giving them snails regularly soon but they don't need near the amount some people say they do unless you're striving for astonishing coloration. I'd still say a dozen snails a week per fish would be ideal though.

[guyswartwout]

Thanks all for the kind words, and advice.

Mike,
I had a 500 gph pump behind the boulder rock, and the constant stirring of sand and sediments, while reminiscent of snorkeling, created a permanent cloud. I responded by replacing all the sand with swimming pool filter sand, and dropping the pump down to 317 gph. Now I miss all the agitation. Maybe I will up the water volume a tad, and stick the 500 back in.

Sean,
Thanks for reminding me that I haven't been giving much thought to feeding. I was planning to share the same types of frozen foods that my tropicals love: bloodworms and artemia. Now I'm getting worried, because I'm pretty sure I'm not going to want to culture live foods, snails or otherwise. I don't think we have greensides near by. I'm hoping to snag a few Roanoke darters this Friday. Their diet consists mostly of insect larvae, but surely they're opportunistic enough to know a good frozen meal when they see one?

Matt,
I think there's some humor that went over my head, but it sounds quite interesting. A few caprodes would be nice if I can find them, and if I'm sure they're not P. rex. The whole riparian thing is just another experiment that is actually going OK so far. It's not as nice as all the pictures though because of condensation. I might need to install some wipers. If I pick them up from the junk yard, will the heater thing work to activate them?

Actually, the plants have been much more fun than I expected. Some of them are just weeds I plucked out of the yard and they are growing. I pulled some plants from a tiny wooded stream near my house, along the Appalachian Trail. It turns out they are watercress, and they are taking over. I felt a little uneasy about the non-natives, but then I read an article about the Watercress darter in Alabama, so I guess watercress has been around for awhile.

[guyswartwout]

Here's an update. I have Roanoke and Riverweed Darters. Thanks again for the hand-holding. I'm learning a lot.

[gerald]

Looks like happy fishies! Hard to tell if those are Roanoke or maybe shield or chainback darters. I can't see any of the usual green-gold sides and red dorsal band that I'm used to seeing on NC Roanokes. Maybe Kanus will chime in ...

[Kanus]

Yep, these are all Roanokes. I helped Guy collect them (and grabbed a few for myself) in the Roanoke River a few weeks back. There is at least one riverweed darter in the background too.

Gerald, if I remember correctly, we may have discussed at one time the differences between your roanoka down there and ours up here. It may be on the forum somewhere (or we discussed it person, it was a while back). I do believe that we had noticed that one tended to have more orange, while the other tended to have more blue/green. Maybe that's why they look a little unusual to you...

[Michael Wolfe]

Well Guy, those big Percina look great! And in case no one noticed, those big Percina are eating flake! What kind of flakes are those?

I really like those Roanokes... they look to me to be somewhat similar to my more local bronze darters. I have always thought them a handsome fish and wonder if they would turn that lovely brassy green that must be the breeding colors and is often shown in the photos.

Well done sir, keep em well fed.

[Chasmodes]

I love that tank, and a cool video too! That algae scrubber should help feed your fish, giving small amphipods and copepods something to chew on and hide in. How is that working for you? Is it keeping your algae in your display under control?

[NotCousteau]

Great looking tank and video! How many gallons per hour do you think your powerhead is producing? I bought a used Koralia and I think it's way too powerful for my darters. I'm unclear how many GPH it produces; it's one of the big, old Koralias. The darters avoid the current, so I've stopped using it and am looking for the right GPH.

[guyswartwout]

Thanks for all the postivie feedback and advice.

 

Gerald, when Meredith and I initially collected a few smaller specimens, I thought they were Shield Darters from looking at pictures.  I have since read that young ronaokas look a lot like shield darters.  I have also learned from sampling with Derek, that I'm at the bottom of very steep learning curve on fish identification, and very glad to have the expertise available from NANFA folks.

 

Michael, those flakes are frozen mysis shrimps.  I feed them daily alternating between grated frozen cocktail shrimps, and 1 of 3 frozen fish foods from the pet store: mysis shrimp, brine shrimp, and bloodworms.  Their hunger slowed down when the tank temps dropped to around 40F or below, but they are still eating well.  It is very gratifying to see them thriving.  And yes, they are lovely, and a bit tangerine, actually.  I find the riverweeds, while not as colorful, to also have very intricate patterning.

 

Kevin, I have been running a spot light on the end of the tank behind the screen for couple of months now.  It has virtually turned that end of the tank into a gooey green mess, which is OK except it gets tangled up in the Koralia wavemaker.  I am stopping the spot light now to see if the tank becomes more acceptable looking.  Hopefully the plants will pick up as the temps climb.  I have java moss that has overwintered.  It seems to enjoy growing emersed.  The watercress went wild at first, but has died back slightly.  I hope it will revive with warmth.  Even my emersed unidentified garden weeds are still alive.

 

NotCousteau, I am running the 850 GPH Koralia in a half filled 55 gallon tank, in addition to a 526 GPH pump to my overhead filter which I call a bucket filter, although I see many refer to it by the oxymoron "overhead sump."  I turn off the wavemaker for a few minutes during feeding.  When they lose interest in the food and I turn the wavemaker back on, the leftovers swirl around, often raising more interest by the fishes.

 

My darters usually hang out in "the jungle" mass of plants at the slow end, but are not shy to come out at feeding time.  They occasionally mill about, as there is enough rock structure to create eddies and hiding places from the current.  This seems most like what I have witnessed snorkeling.

 

I am in the process of replacing the 526 GPH pump with a 320 GPH external pump for lower heat generation and greater heat dissipation.

 

Hey, I have accumulated several more tanks that I am setting up.  Are there any suggestions on how to stock them?  I would be interested in some breeding if I can find the economics to support it.  What I mean by economic feasibility is not necessarily profit, but that there must be demand for the product.  I sure don't want to raise a bunch of fishes that nobody wants.  I've done that, and it makes me feel bad.

[gerald]

I'd guess tank-bred P. roanoka might be in demand.  It's one of the more colorful small Percina sp that is also pretty heat-tolerant.  I catch them in streams around Raleigh that get up to 82-85 F in mid-late summer.   You might check with our native fish vendors (BrianZ, BrianT, Jonah) if they'd be interested in buying your extras.  Also check on whether selling tank-bred native fish requires any permit in VA.  Enneacanthus, Fundulus, Lucania, Chrosomus, Cyprinella pyrrhomelas, and the  "Hydrophlox" group of Notropis are some others to consider -- should be easy to find homes for extras.