Help needed please: Sick Bluegill & Exhausted Owner! :)

Good morning and many thanks in advance for any assistance that anyone can provide to this newbie! My "story" is a little lengthy but I really need help so I hope that the details are helpful!

We have a 16,000 gallon backyard pond. Inhabitants are 10 large koi and 5,000,000,000 bluegill...ok, not really but 9 turned into "a lot more" quickly. A week ago Monday, we drained and cleaned the pond. When putting fish back, I noticed that one of my big bluegill (saucer-sized...2.5 y/o) has/had fin rot. Raggedy fins, flesh missing, etc. I decided to put him in a quarantine tank and treat him...thinking it would be pretty easy.

Not so much. Here is what has happened so far. I have kept a "log" of what I was doing so pardon the lingo...it's diary style:

MONDAY-WED:
I setup a 20L quarantine tank...only half full b/c that was all I could carry initially...I have since added 2 more gallons to make it 12 (am adjusting medicine quantities w/ gallonage increase) and will keep adding water as I bring it in from the pond and make it room temp.

He has been in there since Monday evening. I do not have a filter...only a bubbler.

I am testing the water daily and so far, nitrates/nitrites are very low and besides the water being a little hard (always is), it looks good.

The water is at room temp...around 67-68 degrees in our 100+ y/o house. LOL

I put in aquarium salt for freshwater fish.

THURS:
I am on my 4th day of treating with Marycyn. The initial prescribed treatment is 5 days.

He will not eat in the tank.


FRIDAY:
Well, he has gone from fin rot to now having fluffy stuff on his fins too.

Amazing what happens when you do your water tests CORRECTLY. The ammonia was at 2.0.

Added filter (hello idiot) and did a water change...15 minutes later...he starts swimming like a happy fish. 30 minutes later...he eats SIX worms!!! First time he has eaten all week!

I'm so excited I could cry. I'm such a girl. ROFLOL

Started him in TriSulpha drugs at advice of store for fungus on fins. Had to remove carbon from filter...TS kills all bacteria in tank.

SUNDAY:

Ammonia out of control again - not time to do a water change according to TriSulpha directions but have to do it anyway.

MONDAY:
Unhappy fish...unhappy owner...stupid pet store employee at generic pet store #1. TriSulpha doesn't treat what my guy has. He has saprolegnia....(or whatever it's called...wooly cottony stuff on his fins)....not body fungus, which is different.

Fin fungus is eating quickly and the fish is not well.

Go to pet store..pick up QuICK Cure...malachite green/formalin combo.
Pick up outrageously $$$ packet of Bio-Spira...some live bacteria that is supposed to eat ammonia.
Dumped in the bio-spira, put the filter back in trying to get ammonia back under control (at 2.0 on my test kit - Pond Master Liquid Test Kit).

TUESDAY:

12:30AM - Fish doing badly. Swimming w/ only one good fin and half of his one raggedy fin left on the right side. Scooting on the aquarium floor, mostly backward...then forward a little. Every now and then shaking like he is vibrating or something. Very odd!!!! Testing the ammonia for the 10000th time today...it's high again. 20% water change (one of a million I have done...also aquarium salt here and there and everywhere).

Put in QuICK cure b/c the fungus is aggressive and getting to the meat of the guy...red edges showing and he looks bad. Fish immediately looks like he is coughing...I freak out.

Scour the internet and find a remote reference that says that members of the Sunfish family (BLUEGILL) are particularly affected by malachite...it's toxic to them. I cuss.

Find another reference that says that you can treat sensitive fish at half strength.

Nothing like a 50% water change at 1am, eh?

I run out to the pond...check the temp...only about 6 degrees diff. between that water and tank water and pond water is testing zero ammonia. Refill 1/2 of tank w/ 8 gallons of tap water and 2 gallons from pond, tempered w/ warmer water from tap (yes, dechloring h20) to put more good bacteria into the tank.



SO...ALL OF THAT TO SAY...here we are now.

He is still cottony but since the water change and lower ammonia (now reading .5), he looks better...calm..breathing right...etc.

What do I do now? My .10 bluegill is now $70.10. LOL I'm not giving him up w/o a fight.

Currently:
20L tank full
Filter on but carbon out
Aerator
50% (a little less) treatment of QuICK Cure
Aquarium salt
Mega cottony fins
Fungus starting to eat into the flesh attaching the fins to the body

Don't know if I should get the antibiotics back in the water too or not...?
Will I need another 50% treatment of quick cure...if so...when?
I'm not even sure if I just leave the quick cure in the water or if i do a water change or what.


FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO MADE IT THRU THIS MESS...Thank you. LOL

I love this little guy and would really appreciate your help asap!

Andrea

Forgot to mention that I may be mistaken on him being a bluegill. I have both hybrids in the pond and bluegill....so I'm not positive which one he is. Not sure if it makes a difference but wanted to include anything pertinent!!!

The "fungus" is probably a bacteria. You need something to treat bacteria. I recently had a problem with fungus-like bacteria. Read about that here:
http://forum.nanfa.o...h...ost&p=11788

Hopefully that will help you.

Oh yeah, also, you should update your profile with your location information.

I would agree that following the directions given to Ed about his pickerel and the steps he took could be very useful in your case as well. I'm not sure what salt concentration you have in the tank but I would be sure to bring it up to 2 tablespoons per 5 gallons or even slightly higher and like Ed said use something meant to treat bacteria.

Ok...so just to make sure I understand.....

I was on the right track w/ the TriSulpha in the first place - even though the fish seemed to get worse?

If I go back on the Trisulpha, how do I control the ammonia since it spikes when I use it?

Should I quit the Quick Cure or continue to use it?

With all of the salt and water changes, I'm not sure what my salinity is right now - Tbs/gal. My test kit will test for salt. If I tell you what it says...can you tell me what it means? LOL

I"m going to get a pic of him...might help. Thanks for the input thus far!

I updated my profile info, BTW.

Some pics:

By the way...is Binox better than TriSulfa?

I'm probably not the best person to be answering questions on curring diseases I have no real training in this. That being said if I have something sick I just use salt and frequent water changes but using the bacterial treatment it seems ed has been successful with his pickerel, so thats why I suggested that, I have no personal experience with the stuff.

I can ID your fish as a bluegill green sunfish hybrid for you

I appreciate your efforts in helping me! Good to know what he really is, too. He's a cutie, eh? Poor little fluffy dude. LOL

I'm probably not the best person to be answering questions on curring diseases I have no real training in this. That being said if I have something sick I just use salt and frequent water changes but using the bacterial treatment it seems ed has been successful with his pickerel, so thats why I suggested that, I have no personal experience with the stuff.

I'm in same boat as smbass and I like the way you put it.....

if I have something sick I just use salt and frequent water changes

this is just about the best advice you can offer without really knowing exactly whats wrong the fish.

For the record, I'd stay away from products that give you an ammonia spike. This indicates a disruption in the bio filter and can easily cause a situation where "the cure is worst than the disease".

For the record, I'd stay away from products that give you an ammonia spike. This indicates a disruption in the bio filter and can easily cause a situation where "the cure is worst than the disease".

So does Binox cause an ammonia spike? Should I switch to it instead of the TriSulfa?

Will salt water alone cure what ails him? If so, should I do a salt "dip" and then just put him back in the pond?



I need to do antibiotics right away if I'm going to do them b/c I am out of town Friday AM till Sun PM.

I'd agree again that it doesn't sound good that when you used that product and you got a ammonia spike, that could do more harm than good. Ed did not seem to have this problem with what he used so maybe try that product instead but I'd be weary of going back to what you used.

As a side note (don't do this now! lets get some discussion first) I had an idea and I'm currious what others think... Since we (as a group) seem to have proven that hydrogen peroxide can be an effective tool in getting rid of algae (which correct me if I'm wrong) is cyano bacteria could it possibly be effective against bacteria growth on fish such as this? In the case of algae using a pipet or a turkey baster to direct the hydrogen peroxide in the direction of algae has almost imeadiate effects and it does not seem to have any adverse effects on biological filtration. Would it be logical to shoot some directly onto the infected areas of the fish? I have used this with great results for getting rid of algae with 0 effect on my fish and I have wondered about using it for treating fish as well. I know someone did mention that they use it to prevent fungus on eggs but don't recal anything else. What are others thoughts on this? do you think it's worth a try with this persons fish? I don't think it would hurt but would it help?

The only products I have used to try and battle fungas were Maroxy and Pimafix. The Pimafix claims to clear fungus, cottony growth and reddeding of the body and fins. The Maroxy claims to treat "true fungal infections of fish and eggs". I gotta be honest with you, I have never cured fungus. I have tied treating bettas and madtoms and both time failed. It might work for you though. Most important is to make sure your water is pristine. You don't want any ammonia and nitrite readings in that tank. The salt like smbass said might help and is worth using.

Um....so I'm really confused now. LOL

Antibiotics?
No?
Salt only?
Copper sulfate to kill the columnaris? Acriflavin? Partridge in a Pear Tree? LOL

I can't get the water "pristine". No matter how hard I am trying, I keep getting a reading of at least 1.0 on the ammonia.

*banging my head on the wall*

The white fluffy stuff looks like staticy hair. It looks like actual individual filaments...as opposed to just a blob of white on his fins. I'm not sure if that makes sense but I want to make sure we diagnose him correctly if you can't tell from the photo.

Um....so I'm really confused now. LOL

Antibiotics?
No?
Salt only?
Copper sulfate to kill the columnaris? Acriflavin? Partridge in a Pear Tree? LOL

I can't get the water "pristine". No matter how hard I am trying, I keep getting a reading of at least 1.0 on the ammonia.

*banging my head on the wall*

The choice to use meds is up to you. You gotta take the advice that people give you and pretty much make a decision based on that. Personally, I don't like meds but in the case of fungas I think it's very much needed. I would use both salt and meds in this case. As for getting the water pristine, you must do the best you can. This is extreamly important. I told you before I tried treating bettas for fungas...do you know how they got it? Ammonia. A freshwater clam died in their tank and unseen by me caused an ammonia spike. Within days the bettas were covered in fungas and ammonia burns. I don't think you can save your fish if you have ammonia in that tank. There are things you can try. Do you have an established tank? If so move some filter media over to your hospital tank. Do you have tanks/ponds with extra gravel/rocks/driftwood/decor...that might help as well as long as it has the bacteria on it needed to get rid of ammonia.

I agree with the above this is good advice you need that bio filter bacteria to reduce ammonia or you will be continuously changing water. Also like sandtiger said we can advise you but the choice in the end of what to do is yours. I think I would get the water to 2 tablespoons per 5 gallons of salt and maybe try another medication other than the one you previously tried and do something to reduce the ammonia, add rocks or something with a lot of surface area from your pond too the tank that would have proper bacteria to neutralize ammonia on it. Personally I may even try my hydrogen peroxide idea but if you do that keep in mind no one else seems to have tested this idea or at least they aren't talking. The fish appears to be in pretty bad shape so it may be the case that not much of anything will save it but you certainly can try. Even if you don't save it you may learn something about what is and isn't effective at curring this type of illness. Be sure either way to report to us if you are able to reduce the "fuzz" because your findings could be helpful to someone else in the future.