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Guys, It's Time To Pony Up...


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#81 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 15 September 2007 - 12:38 PM

BTW, congrats on joining!

#82 Guest_nativecajun_*

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Posted 17 September 2007 - 09:00 AM

I would not go anywhere if my vehicle only got ~ 15mpg. And 80 bucks a night for a motel when most State parks only charge 15 buck to tent and they have showers. My {OLD} almost twenty year old truck get 25 mpg and I thought that was bad. And I have never spent over 39 a night for a motel for just myself. Make things doable is my suggestion. Carry three friends and cut those driving motel expenses by four. Doing that you would expose three more people to NANFA and its good work and spend 80 for four nights at that Palace. Then what ever that hunking thing you drive would be a whole lot cheaper getting you there.

I guess I require a little more participation. I get at minimum 2 annual field trips, an annual meeting, 4 issues of a good journal, and hundreds of people nearby with similar interests with my state group for $15.

I dont really consider Cape Girardeau to be local at 356 miles away and the $75 registration fee sounds like a group for people who actually finished college.

Membership............................................$20
700 mile round trip gas money...............$140
4 day hotel stay......................................$320
Event Registration...................................$75

The chance to max out my $600 limit
Mastercard to hang out with a bunch
of people I probly wont see for another
10 years...................................................not worth it (to me)

............But then I was complaining about a $20 fishing license in another thread.

Ill just continue to enjoy collecting fish and sharing my experiences on the free forums. Who knows, maybe Ill win the lottery someday.



#83 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 17 September 2007 - 06:36 PM

It's worth it to some, not to others. Yeah, you can hang out with NANFA members and not be a member - nobody will put a contract on you.

I'm a member because I like to help the club, others join only for what they can get out of the club. I always spend about $200 at the convention auctions, others snap up the $1 deals. I think it's worth $20 in either case, but if you're primarily a tropical keeper, then this is just another forum to visit.

#84 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 29 September 2007 - 11:24 PM

I should add that NANFA members do not have to pay extra to be members of the Catfish Alliance...

#85 Guest_sandtiger_*

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 07:06 AM

I'm a member because I like to help the club, others join only for what they can get out of the club.


Alright, I understand this may sound like blasphemy but what exactly does NANFA do that my money is needed to help out with? I understand money is needed to run the web site, produce the publication and run the convention (even though you still have to pay for that as well) but I'm wondering what exactly NANFA does for native fish? I have been looking at a few organizations because I want to help out the causes I support. I don't see or hear about NANFA lobbying for native species in government, or organizing stream cleanups, or setting up youth outreach programs. The only things I hear about are organized collecting trips and I can do that regardless of my membership. It seems that the only reasons to join NANFA i nthe first places are for things like the publication. So yeah, if I joined I would be doing it for what I get out of it because frankly I don't see what else there is. Now I may me completely off base and if I am I'm sorry for that, this is not ment to offend anyone I just want to know. I have the membership form printed out and sitting on my table, I just cannot see a reason why I should join this organization and what it will do for native fishes if I do.

#86 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 08:20 AM

That's an excellent question. This may be a good time to introduce you to two of our programs:

Corcoran Educational Grant
Conservation Research Grant

There have been other opportunities along the way that we have opted to fund.

As for lobbying, NANFA by itself is not large enough to be effective. But we have proposed a national fish (dunno what the status of this is) and many of our members have embarked upon various media campaigns (e.g. a recent attempt to clarify the reasons why mosquitofish should not be intorduced in order to control mosquitos).

I'm sure others could jump in and add a bunch of stuff, but these come to mind. We have kicked around some pretty ambitious projects that we just don't have the money for.

So, fill out that form, or use the convenient link in my signature!

#87 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 09:33 AM

ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country

Martin is right, our organization simply isn't big enough to march on Washington and make change......yet.
Nor does NANFA have the cash flow to pay a million dollar a year Washington lobbyist.

I'm not sure why you've not heard of NANFA participation to lobby change both locally and national. I suspect in general NANFA as an organization does not tend to brag or inflated it's importance.

In many organizations and even businesses, people look to the top for everything when the most effective way to help their local area (or department if speaking about a business) is to make recommendations and take action on a local level. Many NANFA members do just that.

Every sampling trip is youth outreach....I can recall only a few occasions when mom/dad and kids didn't stop and ask what we're doing. Most conversations last between 30 and 60 minutes. Often several unrelated people assemble after the first group stops. Again all impact is local and the national organization tooting it's own horn about how it's going to change the world is really only PR.

If people don't join the organization, it cannot have numbers to impact national change. Individuals can make change regardless of what organization they're members of. If my local stream is a mess, should I look to the federal government for help or should I seek a local organization to become part of? If no local organization exists one should consider forming a local group or simply getting out and fixing the mess themselves.

NANFA is not an organization of smoke, mirrors and bright lights. I'd love to tell you that your $20 will change the world but in reality NANFA needs members to speak for native fishes, streams and rivers. Your $ 20 will go to publication/postage of American Currents and portion will assist grant monies.

I would like to say at this point that I'm not speaking on behalf of NANFA as these are simply my observations and thoughts.

#88 Guest_sandtiger_*

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 10:08 AM

ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country


I really don't think that quote has any relation to this topic. I'm not asking what they can do for me. I want to know what they are going to do with my money to help the cause I am trying to support. I understand that I can do that work for them but I don't need to be a member to do that.

I'm not sure why you've not heard of NANFA participation to lobby change both locally and national. I suspect in general NANFA as an organization does not tend to brag or inflated it's importance.


There is nothing wrong with bragging, especially when you're trying to attract members to a cause. It lets people know that something is being done, that their money is going to be used properly. I visited the Trout Unlimited site, lots of bragging there. I was very impressed. NANFA just seems to be an orgainization composed of a small handful of fishkeepers who meet up once a year to collect fish. Maybe I'm wrong...I hope I am.

In many organizations and even businesses, people look to the top for everything when the most effective way to help their local area (or department if speaking about a business) is to make recommendations and take action on a local level. Many NANFA members do just that.


Why do I look to the top for everything? Because again, that is where the money is going. I have no problem with helping at a local level but I can do that myself regardless of my membership. I don't need a card that says NANFA in order to educate people or organize a stream cleanup. The grants however that Irate pointed out is an excellent idea. I wonder how many of these grants have actually been awarded?

Every sampling trip is youth outreach....I can recall only a few occasions when mom/dad and kids didn't stop and ask what we're doing. Most conversations last between 30 and 60 minutes. Often several unrelated people assemble after the first group stops. Again all impact is local and the national organization tooting it's own horn about how it's going to change the world is really only PR.


That's not the educational outreach I'm talking about. What you mention is a fortunate side effect of what you're already doing. Your goal when collecting is not to educate people (except for perhaps yourself) and you would do it regardless. I'm talking about speaking at local nature centers, schools, county fairs. Setting up displays, speaking at sportsmans clubs etc.

#89 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 11:31 AM

There is nothing wrong with bragging, especially when you're trying to attract members to a cause. It lets people know that something is being done, that their money is going to be used properly. I visited the Trout Unlimited site, lots of bragging there. I was very impressed.


Maybe I was trying to be polite. Bragging is alright I guess but kidding yourself or inflating organizational importance is not useful in my opinion. Each and every penny spent within the organization is published in AC. This allows the entire membership to see how all monies are spent.

NANFA just seems to be an organization composed of a small handful of fishkeepers who meet up once a year to collect fish. Maybe I'm wrong...I hope I am.


You've never read the homepage or a single AC have you? If you've read an issue of American Currents and formed this opinion about the organization, I'd like to know which issue!

Why do I look to the top for everything? Because again, that is where the money is going. I have no problem with helping at a local level but I can do that myself regardless of my membership. I don't need a card that says NANFA in order to educate people or organize a stream cleanup. The grants however that Irate pointed out is an excellent idea. I wonder how many of these grants have actually been awarded?


This information was provided by Martin in the above links.

From the links:

In 2007, for the fourth year in a row, NANFA has doubled its $1,000 annual commitment to the NANFA Conservation Research Grant program. This year, three grants were awarded, bringing the grant funding total since the program began in 2001 to $11,350.


In the past three years $4419.65 have been awarded for education. This program has been providing grants since 2000. I do not have education grant totals handy.

That's not the educational outreach I'm talking about. What you mention is a fortunate side effect of what you're already doing. Your goal when collecting is not to educate people (except for perhaps yourself) and you would do it regardless. I'm talking about speaking at local nature centers, schools, county fairs. Setting up displays, speaking at sportsmans clubs etc.


Regardless of how individual contact is made, it still has an effect. I guess I should tell you that work with nature centers to provide educational materials (photos, live fish and the sort) and I'm not the only one. I'll be speaking in November as well again I'm not the only one. I'm not just stomping around the water "collecting". I'm sampling and recording/reporting this data to the state. I went sampling with folks from Nature centers just yesterday. Some had never been on a sampling trip and can apply the knowledge gained from this to countless individuals. Recently while "educating myself" we found a strong population of fishes believed to have been extirpated from an entire river system for nearly 40 years. Genetic work is under way to determine if this population is suitable to culture and restock the entire river system. If more populations are required for diversity, I can assure you I'll once again "educate myself" and work like a mule to establish suitable populations.

This is part of what NANFA does and did not spend a penny doing so. This was my point in my original quote. Not all good things cost money and many individuals do the right thing as they should.

#90 Guest_sandtiger_*

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 11:57 AM

You've never read the homepage or a single AC have you? If you've read an issue of American Currents and formed this opinion about the organization, I'd like to know which issue!


I have visited the NANFA homepage. I'm not a member of NANFA so "No", I have never read an issue of AC.

Regardless of how individual contact is made, it still has an effect. I guess I should tell you that work with nature centers to provide educational materials (photos, live fish and the sort) and I'm not the only one. I'll be speaking in November as well again I'm not the only one. I'm not just stomping around the water "collecting". I'm sampling and recording/reporting this data to the state. I went sampling with folks from Nature centers just yesterday. Some had never been on a sampling trip and can apply the knowledge gained from this to countless individuals. Recently while "educating myself" we found a strong population of fishes believed to have been extirpated from an entire river system for nearly 40 years. Genetic work is under way to determine if this population is suitable to culture and restock the entire river system. If more populations are required for diversity, I can assure you I'll once again "educate myself" and work like a mule to establish suitable populations.

This is part of what NANFA does and did not spend a penny doing so. This was my point in my original quote. Not all good things cost money and many individuals do the right thing as they should.


I think you're starting to take this personally. Nothing I said was ment to be an attack towards you or an attack toward fish collecting itself. Everything you're doing is very admirable but I'm not asking what you do as an individual. You're Uland, not NANFA. I wanted to know what NANFA does. You said every penny goes into publishing AC so I guess that answers my question about where my money is going. Everything you listed I can do myself regardless of my membership. Rather then looking for an organization to support I should focus my efforts on doing something myself. If I want to read AC I'll join NANFA, otherwise it sounds like everything NANFA does I can do myself, I just won't have a NANFA card in my pocket when I do it.

#91 Guest_dredcon_*

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 12:45 PM

I think he meant evey penny spent is listed in a table this is printed in AC

#92 Guest_sandtiger_*

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 12:52 PM

I think he meant evey penny spent is listed in a table this is printed in AC



Yeah, I get that now. I read it again.

#93 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 01:27 PM

Thank you for the clarification dredcon.....Indeed I meant that at the end of each fiscal year NANFA dues (income) and expenditures are published for all members to see.

I do take it personally when you imply NANFA is "nothing more than a small handful of fishkeepers who meet up once a year to collect fish" and "I wonder how many of these grants have actually been awarded?"

How do you expect someone to react when you come to a national organization's site and basically call it handful of do nothings that may or may not spend it's money to the benefit of it's published objectives?

Mission

The mission is clear. Do you disagree in which NANFA as whole accomplishes this mission? Do you disagree with NANFA's objectives?

Sandtiger I still don't think you get it.....NANFA has contributed ten's of thousand's of dollars to education and research and continues to do so. The membership makes up this organization (as does any organization) and individual dedication is what makes any organization great. I'm not saying I'm a great member, I'm saying I'm just one of 500 members that do everything they can to accomplish NANFA objectives (Education, Scientific Knowledge and Conservation) I'm not sure what you want to see NANFA spend it's money/time on but so many activities, outreach events and conservation efforts are under way it would sure be easier if you would just say what it takes for you to actually join!

#94 Guest_sandtiger_*

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 02:22 PM

I do take it personally when you imply NANFA is "nothing more than a small handful of fishkeepers who meet up once a year to collect fish" and "I wonder how many of these grants have actually been awarded?"

How do you expect someone to react when you come to a national organization's site and basically call it handful of do nothings that may or may not spend it's money to the benefit of it's published objectives?


I'm not suprised you would react that way. Lets get something clear though, I don't dislike NANFA. I want to join NANFA. If I didn't I would not have the paper ready to be sent out and I would not even be talking with you about this. I just want to know what the deal is. I already said that I never ment to offend anyone and I already know this may be a sensitive issue for some. I notice this forum putting pressure on the non-members to join and before I do that I just want to further educate myself on the organization and answer the question of what makes this organization more worthy of another (like Trout Unlimited for example). You guys try to use AC and the yearly convention as a draw for people to join. Well I honetly don't have much desire to get AC and I honestly cannot go to the conventions so what is left? What's left is what the organization does and that's what I'm interested in. What an organization does is also IMO the most important part of an organization. Now you guys say I'm selfesh. That I should join not for what I get but because the organization needs my money. It's a worthy cause and I should be happy to recieve anything at all. Well if my money is being spent on conventions and a publication and I don't want either then what's the point? You say that what the organization does is outlined in the issues of AC, I don't get AC so how am I supposed to know that?

The mission is clear. Do you disagree in which NANFA as whole accomplishes this mission? Do you disagree with NANFA's objectives?


I'm not sure I agree that these missions are accomplised. Educate me. My exposure to NANFA comes through this forum and on this forum I don't typically hear about educational outreach, conservation efforts and captive husbandy. I know there are a lot of individuals like yourself who take part in these things but I never see any kind of organized effort that I would expect to see in an organization.

Sandtiger I still don't think you get it.....NANFA has contributed ten's of thousand's of dollars to education and research and continues to do so. The membership makes up this organization (as does any organization) and individual dedication is what makes any organization great. I'm not saying I'm a great member, I'm saying I'm just one of 500 members that do everything they can to accomplish NANFA objectives (Education, Scientific Knowledge and Conservation) I'm not sure what you want to see NANFA spend it's money/time on but so many activities, outreach events and conservation efforts are under way it would sure be easier if you would just say what it takes for you to actually join!


I guess the only way to get the answers I seek is to join. Evidently reading AC is the only way any questions I have will get answered. I'll join and within a year of that I'll let you know if I'm satisfied.

#95 Guest_seanmc_*

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 02:55 PM

I just joined a few weeks ago. The help and support of the membership here is terrific. I promptly received my Summer 2007 copy of American currents, which has some very good articles (including an excellent discussion on what constitutes a "species"). I also asked for, and received, a membership directory that will help me contact other native keepers in my province.

If you've never seen a copy of AC, try one here: American Currents

You can also purchase backcopies all the way to 1972 on CD (with a 50% discount if you are a NANFA member).

It is $20 ($25 for Canadians) well spent, IMO.

Cheers - Sean

#96 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 03:13 PM

Sandtiger,

I'd like to thank you for joining! I'm pretty certain that anyone who writes informational pieces such as yourself, will find AC valuable. Welcome aboard. I was not suggesting you dislike NANFA in my comments. I was attempting to coax out of you where you can find a national organization that more closely represents your interests with native fish.

I understand you didn't mean to offend but I mean hey.....I'm a bit defensive on the matter and how it was worded. You must realize that when comments of this nature are made to the public, they must be responded to as if potential members wonder if you speak from a position of knowledge. I felt it important for potential members to know that all grant monies and expenditures are sent to each member and grants are passed through an elected Board and initiated via committee. NANFA constitution

Now you guys say I'm selfesh. That I should join not for what I get but because the organization needs my money. It's a worthy cause and I should be happy to recieve anything at all.

I don't believe I've called you selfish and I've not suggested that you're lucky to get anything at all. Weather or not you like AC (but you will) or choose not to attend national conventions, your money will support outreach/education, conservation and captive care efforts. I've been around you long enough to know you have interest in all of the previous.

You say that what the organization does is outlined in the issues of AC, I don't get AC so how am I supposed to know that?

I'm not saying "what NANFA does" is outlined in AC but much of the goings on are published there. I believe the organization's objectives are worthy and outlined properly on the main page. I understand you have not read AC but by golly it's only $20 per year and if you believe in the NANFA mission statement, it's not like you're dropping a weeks pay to find out.

I'm not sure I agree that these missions are accomplised.

How many people understand the impact of siltation, and dams on on native fishes......how many people are there in the US? :biggrin:
OK this is a hard objective...going door to door and teaching every singe person in the US the value of our natural resources and just plain how cool our native fishes are. Just because it's hard does not mean we should not try. This is why we need your support.

#97 Guest_AC-Editor_*

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 05:14 PM

My take on NANFA (as expressed in a recent brochure):


The North American Native Fishes Association (NANFA) was founded in 1972
by a group of fish enthusiasts who saw the need for an organization dedicated
to the appreciation, study and conservation of a poorly-known and little-loved part
of our natural heritage — the native fishes of North America.

Now a 501©(3) corporation, NANFA attracts a diverse membership. Aquarium
hobbyists. Ichthyologists. Anglers. Teachers. Fisheries managers. Professional
aquarists. Natural resource agency biologists. Fish collection curators. Nature center
educators and exhibit designers. Aquatic ecologists. Watershed protection activists.

All are fascinated by the continent’s native fishes. All are concerned with their
increasing imperilment.

And all have never outgrown the childhood joy of running a net through a creek or
pond to reveal what swims below.

NANFA has five objectives:

• To increase and disseminate knowledge about North America’s fishes and their
habitats.
• To promote the conservation of native fishes and the protection/restoration of
natural habitats.
• To advance the educational, scientific and conservation benefits of keeping and
breeding native fishes in captivity.
• To support the legal and environmentally responsible collection of native fishes
for private aquaria as a valid use of a natural resource.
• To provide a forum for fellowship and camaraderie among its members.

NANFA’s quarterly publication, American Currents

The contents of American Currents are as varied as the membership. Contributions
from professional biologists are published alongside those by aquarium hobbyists and
other amateur naturalists. Information and writing not ordinarily found in more technical
journals — but still relevant to a deeper appreciation and knowledge of our fish fauna —
are perfectly at home here.

Indeed, no topic is too broad or too narrow. Taxonomy. Distribution. Collecting techniques.
Field photography. Trip reports. Aquarium system design and maintenance. Captive
breeding. Behavior. Ecology. Conservation. Fishwatching. And more.

Above all, American Currents is an enthusiast’s publication. The enthusiasm of
its contributors — unbridled by the restraints of purely academic writing —may just make
it the most fun-to-read journal indexed in the Zoological Record!

NANFA’s grants: much-needed funds for much-needed work

To help fulfill its dual conservation and education objectives, NANFA funds two grant
programs:

The NANFA Conservation Research Grant awards a minimum $1000 per year for
research that aids the conservation of North America’s native fishes, particularly
those that are imperiled. Students, researchers, conservation groups and aquarists are
all eligible for the award.

Named for a past NANFA president and renowned environmental educator (now deceased),
the Gerald C. Corcoran Education Grant earmarks at least $1000 annually to fund
projects that help educate the public about the diversity of North American fishes and the
protection of their habitats. Projects may include, but are not limited to, brochures, posters,
nature center and classroom displays, Web sites, stream survey field trips, and streamside
signage.

Since the inception of these grants in 2000, NANFA has awarded over $20,000. For
complete grant program details, visit http://nanfa.org/grants .

“Annotated Checklist of North American Freshwater Fishes”

Oddly, no comprehensive, up-to-date checklist of North America’s freshwater fish fauna —
including subspecies and undescribed forms — is available. This NANFA project fills that
void, providing taxonomic, distribution and conservation data for over 1,400 taxa.

Two of the four projected volumes of the Checklist have appeared in American
Currents
. The final two volumes are slated for the Fall 2007 and Fall 2008 issues,
respectively. A scaled-down version of the Checklist is at http://nanfa.org/checklist .

Fun and “finship”

NANFA offers three fun ways for native fish enthusiasts to meet and learn from one
another. You can do it electronically on the NANFA Forum (forum.nanfa.org). And
you can do it in person at regional NANFA outings and national annual conventions.

The 2008 convention is scheduled for September 25-28 at the Texas Freshwater Fisheries
Center in Athens, Texas. Not only are these conventions fun and educational, but they
also raise the money that help fund NANFA’s two grant programs.


Chris Scharpf
Baltimore




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