Mud In Sunfish Tank?

I was thinking and i thought that i would have an easier time breeding sunfish if there was mud at the bottom of the tank to make it more natural. I found some stuff at the local pet store for reptiles that is an all natural sand and it looks just like mud but i want to know if my plants would grow in that situation. i am planning on starting a mud bottomed fish tank that wil be planted and have several pieces of drift wood and rocks and it will be 75 gallons. i have had years of expierience taking care of fish and i thought it might work.

I was thinking and i thought that i would have an easier time breeding sunfish if there was mud at the bottom of the tank to make it more natural. I found some stuff at the local pet store for reptiles that is an all natural sand and it looks just like mud but i want to know if my plants would grow in that situation. i am planning on starting a mud bottomed fish tank that wil be planted and have several pieces of drift wood and rocks and it will be 75 gallons. i have had years of expierience taking care of fish and i thought it might work.

That stuff compacts to much and does not act much like mud.

A better alternative would be a mixture of (roughly) 55% sand, 20% Horticultural peat and 30% Sticks leaves and debris. Make this substrate at least 5 to 6 inches deep. When first placed in the tank expect it to be a mess for at least a week or two, once it settles however it works great.

That stuff compacts to much and does not act much like mud.

A better alternative would be a mixture of (roughly) 55% sand, 20% Horticultural peat and 30% Sticks leaves and debris. Make this substrate at least 5 to 6 inches deep. When first placed in the tank expect it to be a mess for at least a week or two, once it settles however it works great.

Alright, thanks for helping me out.

That stuff compacts to much and does not act much like mud.

A better alternative would be a mixture of (roughly) 55% sand, 20% Horticultural peat and 30% Sticks leaves and debris. Make this substrate at least 5 to 6 inches deep. When first placed in the tank expect it to be a mess for at least a week or two, once it settles however it works great.

Brooklamprey,

in your opinion is this necessary to get sunfish to breed? I was under the impression that food, temp, and photo period were more important

Brooklamprey,

in your opinion is this necessary to get sunfish to breed? I was under the impression that food, temp, and photo period were more important

I think he's just refering to the question about mud, and what he should use instead of repti-sand, not that this is a trigger or better substrate for breeding sunfish; although, it may be better, as the leaves and debris would help infusoria and small invertabrates (i.e. water fleas) to grow in the tank and serve as food for the fry. I think that's the longest sentence I've written in my life.

Brooklamprey,

in your opinion is this necessary to get sunfish to breed? I was under the impression that food, temp, and photo period were more important

IME it does not matter the type of substrate. Temp, diet, photo period are much larger and more important factors. I have had various sunfish species spawn on a variety of substrates.

If one wants a good sort of mucky aquarium substrate though the above works. I use this for a variety of fish species and it is effective. Addition of the high organic components does indeed add to the productivity of the tank as far as micro organisms go so I could see a side benefit of getting the fry growing quickly without additional early care. In the case of Lamprey ammocoetus and Elassoma (to an extent) it actually almost eliminates the need for additional feeding.

I just wanted a very natural tank for breeding sunfish.

Wouldn't adding mud and debris cause a lot of filtration problems, especially if the sunnies will be digging in it? A fine gravel would be better IMO.

Wouldn't adding mud and debris cause a lot of filtration problems, especially if the sunnies will be digging in it? A fine gravel would be better IMO.

This really depends on the type of filtration used. One is obviously not going to use an easily clogged system if using such a substrate.

If you were wondering i am giong to use an emperor 400 bio-wheel filter.

This really depends on the type of filtration used. One is obviously not going to use an easily clogged system if using such a substrate.

What kind of filter would work? I had emperor 400's on my 125 planted tank and I always had problems with plants getting sucked into my impeller and slowing it down. Now I use a canister filter and will be setting up an overflow. Would an overflow be a good option?

Do a Walstad tank--trade your filter for some potting soil and plants!

A couple air driven sponges will work just fine as long as you keep up with water changes. There is no need for a HOB power filter in a tank designed for spawning these fish. You really do not want it actually.....There is a way to make these filters usable for a fine easily disturbed substrate but for sunfish I would not bother with this. Simple sponge filters will work better and will be much more effective for you.

I was thinking and i thought that i would have an easier time breeding sunfish if there was mud at the bottom of the tank to make it more natural. I found some stuff at the local pet store for reptiles that is an all natural sand and it looks just like mud but i want to know if my plants would grow in that situation. i am planning on starting a mud bottomed fish tank that wil be planted and have several pieces of drift wood and rocks and it will be 75 gallons. i have had years of expierience taking care of fish and i thought it might work.

I would be afraid to use this stuff. Wouldn't it have a ton of calcium in it?

I am with Brook on this one. Sponge filters! Substrate is not important to spawning sunfish, I have heard for people do it with bare bottom tanks, but why? Cannot figure out bare bottom tanks for anything, except maybe to facilitate cleaning.

I have tried just pure quartz sand, which is most of the soil in my area. Can be bought at landscape yards or places that deal concrete, atleast locally, really cheap. Quarter ton for twenty or thirty bucks. That fills a lot of tanks, to the top

Good diet, atleast twelve hours of daylight, fourteen better, sixteen you cannot go wrong, and they should go. Lots of cover to protect females and subordinate males.

Most sunfish dig throug the layer of muck or silt if that is the common bottom type where they live, down to something more solid, bedrock, sand, or gravel, or a mix. Sticks and leaves even. Flour fine silt or other substrates suffocate eggs, so just think that when picking a substrate.

Playsand and that sand in 'sand saugages' sold for weight in winter ( for in an auto) is a bit fine, but can work if you mix in some of the other items, peat, sticks and dried leaves ( stick to oak, I know it works, but think any thick leaved trees do well, avoid maples or thin leaves) and some gravel of any size. Since its mixed with the sand and other stuff, even some very course gravel can help.

Leaves, twigs and peat moss will add tannins to the water, which give it a yellow to tea color. I prefer this, but some are turned off by it, so just a warning. Besides the tannins being beneficial for many reasons, the tint in the water seems to bring color out in sunfish.

I've heard that mud works better becuase the males can build redds for more natural conditions.

I've heard that mud works better becuase the males can build redds for more natural conditions.

Someone may need to correct me if I am wrong since as I understand it, very little is known about the breeding habits of mud sunfish. Even thought they maybe associated with mud substrates they may seek out relatively rare alternatives also occuring in the enviroment. Maybe inclusion of a root wad may tickle them as much as mud or more typical spawning substrates like gravel and sand. They may spawn like crappies and Sacremento perch by having the ability to place eggs on relatively intact plants. Also broods placed on a bare bottom tank produce fewer quality larvae. Parental male's custodial duties likley to damage embryos attached to such a flat surface.

How are you conditioning your mud sunfish?

Someone may need to correct me if I am wrong since as I understand it, very little is known about the breeding habits of mud sunfish. Even thought they maybe associated with mud substrates they may seek out relatively rare alternatives also occuring in the enviroment. Maybe inclusion of a root wad may tickle them as much as mud or more typical spawning substrates like gravel and sand. They may spawn like crappies and Sacremento perch by having the ability to place eggs on relatively intact plants. Also broods placed on a bare bottom tank produce fewer quality larvae. Parental male's custodial duties likley to damage embryos attached to such a flat surface.

How are you conditioning your mud sunfish?

I'm not actually sure what sunfish we are talking about for this....Not really Mud sunfish just a mud substrate IN a sunfish spawning setup..

BTW brimsorbust what sunfish species is this for???

I wouldn't put mud in an aquarium full on sunfish at all. Sunfish tend to be a messy fish by my observation and I wouldn't want an entire tank full of sunnies keeping the silt at the bottom stirred up.

Here's my suggestion: try going to a welding supply store or hardware store and buying a 50lb sack of course sandblasting sand. This is a sand made of relatively large granules and won't compact like regular fine sand will (acts more like gravel than sand). Size wise, I would put it between small aquarium gravel and regular sand. Plus, the stuff we used to sell came in "natural" colors and was cheap which is important if you have to put a 6" deep layer across a 4' long aquarium. I used to sell this for a lot of cichlid aquariums so you'll probably be fine with sunfish. Just be sure and rinse it well to get the dust out of it before you put it in the aquarium.

"BTW brimsorbust what sunfish species is this for???"

Brooklamprey, I am going to have bluegill and longear sunfish with stargazing minnows.