Darter From Spring Creek Oklahoma

Welcome Seedy - good to see you made over to the natives from the cichlids.

Seedy,

First of all, we were not "jumping" you in any case, just trying to inform you that you should know what you have before you take it home. We are completely for the well-being of our native fish in their natural habitat, and we practice our good ethics to help ensure that we do not harm the environment or populations of fish. We try our best to not take unknown fish from their habitats that could possibly be protected. If you want an I.D. of a fish, take a picture at the collection site and post it on here. The creek/stream/river/etc. isn't going to disappear overnight, and neither are the fish your collecting. If it is identified as a common species with no protected status, then would be the time to go collect them for your aquariums. Yes, if you took one or two and informed the public of how they are endangered or threatened in the wild would help them a little, but why not take a picture to show people? If they see it in your tank, they might think, well, he only took a couple and nothing happened, so what if I take a couple? But if you show them a picture, they will know that you care just as much as you say you do about endangered and threatened species. Yes, you say you report people that take one or two paddlefish over the limit, but isn't that the same as you taking one or two endangered or threatened darters? You don't need to join a forum, and on the same day talk about how we are "jumping" you, when really all we are trying to do is save the last of our backyard jewels. Please forgive me if I have offended you in any way.

Well, sorry for the book I wrote, but welcome to the forum. I'm not trying to run you off. If you enjoy cichlids, try raising some sunfish(centrarchids). They have similar build and some have the aggression of cichlids to boot.

-Steve

Seedy,

First of all, we were not "jumping" you in any case, just trying to inform you that you should know what you have before you take it home. We are completely for the well-being of our native fish in their natural habitat, and we practice our good ethics to help ensure that we do not harm the environment or populations of fish. We try our best to not take unknown fish from their habitats that could possibly be protected. If you want an I.D. of a fish, take a picture at the collection site and post it on here. The creek/stream/river/etc. isn't going to disappear overnight, and neither are the fish your collecting. If it is identified as a common species with no protected status, then would be the time to go collect them for your aquariums. Yes, if you took one or two and informed the public of how they are endangered or threatened in the wild would help them a little, but why not take a picture to show people? If they see it in your tank, they might think, well, he only took a couple and nothing happened, so what if I take a couple? But if you show them a picture, they will know that you care just as much as you say you do about endangered and threatened species. Yes, you say you report people that take one or two paddlefish over the limit, but isn't that the same as you taking one or two endangered or threatened darters? You don't need to join a forum, and on the same day talk about how we are "jumping" you, when really all we are trying to do is save the last of our backyard jewels. Please forgive me if I have offended you in any way.

-Steve

I second that, sorry if I offended you.

Tom

Yes, you say you report people that take one or two paddlefish over the limit, but isn't that the same as you taking one or two endangered or threatened darters?

Steve,

Completely apples to oranges...not even in the same league much less ballpark. The poachers I'm referring to snag dozens of spoonbill a day harvesting their eggs to sell as caviar. They burn the rest of the fish bodies on the rivers edge (to attempt to hide how many they have collected) and violate all manner of Oklahoma Fish and Game regulations. What they are doing they are doing for greed and profit, I am simply enjoying studying nature with my Wife and Son. I'm talking about some really rough characters who are committing a very serious offense that caries very stiff legal penalties...and they will use force against you if attempt to confront or stop them. I'm talking about a real "red neck circus" down there on the river bank when the spoonbill are running, you have never seen such a site...Anarchy with 20 foot surf rods throwing 5 pound weights and treble hooks the size of pears...40 or 50 people "snagging" on each side of the bank in about a 100 ft stretch...all with 10-20+ foot surf rods...Then there are the 20 to 30 boats in the water trying to fight the current and jockey for position in front of the low water dam...Now add to the fact that everyone there is also drinking....and never a game warden or Sheriff to be seen...I don't get it...EVERYONE knows it is going on...

E. uniporum is from the Black River drainage in Missouri I think. As far as I know none of the orangethroats in OK have been split, which is based off of the list that the Oklahoma chapter of AFS keeps on their website. I'm sure some eventually will move around, though, because there are many visible differences between populations in the state.

That could be but there is another new species that was described from the Black River drainage and I did not list that one, that is what led me to beleive the E. uniporum was from another area, it just says it is found in Missouri and Arkansas and does not give a drainage. The species specifically mention to be in the Black River is E. burri. This is directly from the sixth addition of the AFS (American Fisheries Society) book. I did however make the mistake of thinking I was looking for something in Arkansas, so since I had the wrong state in mind this is all un-applicable.

So long story short, the fish in question is an Orangethroat Darter E. spectabile.

Thanks for the help with the ID.

I talked with my fisheries biologist today and he had checked and there are NO known protected species occurring in Spring Creek, so I have a "Green Light" to collect from Spring Creek as long as I follow proper guidelines in regards to net sizes, number etc...

He did caution me to be on the look out for the "Neosho Madtom" which is not known to occur in that creek, but possibly could. Other than that he said the other Madtoms and Darters should be fair game!

Seedy,

First, welcome aboard. It is always good to have others who are interested in our NA fishes join the forum. This is a great place to get Id's, share aquarium, information, learn about conservation efforts across North America, trade fish, meet others with common interests, share ideas and knowledge.

It is wonderful to see your involvment in your state, both with learning about your watersheds and working with state game officials. It is also good to see that you continually try to be a responsible collector. Also great job in taking pics of those poachers. I do not know why more is not done in that area?

I would just like to share a comparison with comments that were made in the thread above. About 24 years ago I started duck hunting with my father. And being the uneducated city folk that we were we got our hunting license, state & federal stamps, the old heavy rubber chest waders, and went to an area to hunt ducks. We knew what a mallard was and that was the primary duck that we wanted. But very quickly another hunter noticed that we did not possitively ID our ducks before we shot them. Boy did we get an earful. Well from then on we knew the ethical code of duck hunting, get a possitive ID before you shoot. Now did that hunter know how much we had done other wise for conservation (donations to orgainizations, etc...) no, but he did not mean to be offensive, accusative, or other; but just wanted us to learn about the ethics.

Many people on this site know that species distributions are not all known. People are always finding new popluations. In Ohio for many years people looked at Milton's Fishes of Ohio and said that it was the bible for species ranges. When sampling many people, even professionals "game officers etc..., for a while, when asked about a specific fish looked to see in the Fishes of Ohio to see if it would be in a specific stream. Well with the expanded efforts of OEPA sampling and others it has been found that distributions are not exactly what we thought they were. Fish have been known to expand their ranges and scientists many times find isolated populations of declining species as they expand their sampling.

The point is we can not be for sure that a specific fish is or is not in a stream. This is why many stress the "ethic" of photographing and getting a positive ID before you collect. This is not a judgement on you or any one else. It is just a friendly way of sharing and educating on the idea of ethics which we do on this forum and in NANFA.

Again I want to thank you for joining and hope that we can learn from you and vica versa. It will be good to see the photographs of Spring Creek and what you have collected. That is a nice pic of an orangethroat darter. Thanks for sharing. I look forward to seeing your future posts.

Steve,

Completely apples to oranges...not even in the same league much less ballpark. The poachers I'm referring to snag dozens of spoonbill a day harvesting their eggs to sell as caviar. They burn the rest of the fish bodies on the rivers edge (to attempt to hide how many they have collected) and violate all manner of Oklahoma Fish and Game regulations. What they are doing they are doing for greed and profit, I am simply enjoying studying nature with my Wife and Son. I'm talking about some really rough characters who are committing a very serious offense that caries very stiff legal penalties...and they will use force against you if attempt to confront or stop them. I'm talking about a real "red neck circus" down there on the river bank when the spoonbill are running, you have never seen such a site...Anarchy with 20 foot surf rods throwing 5 pound weights and treble hooks the size of pears...40 or 50 people "snagging" on each side of the bank in about a 100 ft stretch...all with 10-20+ foot surf rods...Then there are the 20 to 30 boats in the water trying to fight the current and jockey for position in front of the low water dam...Now add to the fact that everyone there is also drinking....and never a game warden or Sheriff to be seen...I don't get it...EVERYONE knows it is going on...

Sorry. I miss understood you about the paddlefish. My bad. We all good?

It's great to know someone is doing something about this, as these are truely amazing fish that very well deserve protection.

Sorry. I miss understood you about the paddlefish. My bad. We all good?

It's great to know someone is doing something about this, as these are truely amazing fish that very well deserve protection.

I thought he wanted to fight or something. After re-re-reading it I got what he meant.

NE-ways...

I got some quick pics of three of the 4 fish...

1st Fish (same as in bag)



Anal fin Close up:



2nd Fish:



3rd Fish



Location pictures to come...

Well put Rockbassbud.


Seedy, we are a bit hypersensitive here about T&E species. Our hobby depends on it. Also most of us have gotten to a point that we really want to protect these fish. We always reccommend that if you are unsure of an ID, that you catch photo, and release. I have personally made this mistake. When I was pretty new, I kept a darter for ID, that turned out to be state threatened. I regret my actions. Your photos are great. This should be no problem for you in the future.
The big thing is to know before you take any fish.

The big thing is to know before you take any fish.

Yeah, I get that...It's been mentioned in almost every post since I joined...

OK I understand...now let's move on.

I get the "hypersensitivity" issue too....come to one of the Cichlid Forums and post something about intentionally breeding hybrids....see how many "flames" you get...

I get the "hypersensitivity" issue too....come to one of the Cichlid Forums and post something about intentionally breeding hybrids....see how many "flames" you get...

Lol. Oh yeah!

So whats the verdict? If its not possible to photo the specimen for ID before keeping the species, and you do end up with a threatened species in your tank, isn't it better to now know that species is in a creek where it wasn't supposed to be? And does one fish really make a difference in any way? If an otter comes and eats a couple darters that are threatened is this unethical?
And if it is your pond, is there anything wrong with encouraging hybrid species? And since I own the land on both sides of this creek, and live 50 yards from it, I usually do catch & release without them ever seeing my tank but I do bring them inside for ID in either a clean mason jar or a bag. My point is you can bring them home for ID if you can return them in time after realizing the species is endangered or threatened, as long as they are not introduced to a stocked tank, right??

Species are federally listed as T or E because their populations are critically small and usually on a trajectory of further shrinkage if nothing is done to prevent further harm from human influences. So yeah, even one individual can make a difference especially if it's a female. That's the cold hard science. Natural processes are a different story, since there's not much we can do about it.

As to hybrids... they occur naturally at some low level. As a purely personal opinion I don't see the point of encouraging them. Many state agencies are still doing "the left hand of god" thing and introducing tiger muskies, etc. I just don't see that the various sunfish hybrids are that big a whoop to justify an effort to produce and release them. Your mileage may vary, as always.