Hi folks,

Here's a quick preview of stuff we caught this weekend in TN. I'm going to put something a little more robust together (mainly to highlight the Dead Animal Party ™), but this'll possibly wet yer whistle for now...

Todd


Etheostoma cinereum, ashy darter - Duck River


Etheostoma sanguifluum , bloodfin darter - Collins River


Etheostoma sanguifluum , bloodfin darter - Barren Fork, Collins River


Etheostoma jessiae, blueside darter - Sequatchie River


Etheostoma etneri, cherry darter - Barren Fork, Collins River


Etheostoma blennoides newmanii, greenside darter - Barren Fork, Collins River


Percina tanasi, snail darter, gravid female - Sequatchie River


Etheostoma virgatum, striped darter - Collins River


Unidentified Notropis minnow - Collins River


Unidentified Notropis minnow - Collins River


Dinner - Clockwise from upper left - Campostoma oligolepis, Etheostoma zonale, Luxilus chrysocephalus, Hybopsis amblops, Cyprinella spiloptera.

"To truly know an animal, is to have eaten it."
- David Etnier

Unidentified Notropis minnow - Collins River


Dinner - Clockwise from upper left - Campostoma oligolepis, Etheostoma zonale, Luxilus chrysocephalus, Hybopsis amblops, Cyprinella spiloptera.

Dinner looks good. How was it?

Where in the Sequatchie was that from? Were you up at the mill dam. Dammit I'm really pissed I didn't go to the meeting last weekend now. I certainly had the funds, just not the time.

or just PM me to fill my curiousity...

Nice fish! You always get to sample in the best spots. So why are you calling Etheostoma newmanii only a subspecies?, I thought that was taken care of at ASIH .

Nice tanasi. Maybe Matt will stop thinking that I've just been pulling his chain on that population...

I'm completely hacked that I couldn't make it to SFC. I'd planned to be on my way to China but the freight forwarder I'd hired backed out at the last moment, leaving me with 1300 lbs of equipment at SFO... and a free month. In hindsight, I should have just flown down, I'd probably be a lot less grumpy...

cheers,
Dave

Was your unidentified Notropis the telescope shiner? I can't quite tell from your photos. And while I can understand cooking a stoneroller, the thought of cooking a smallish darter like E. zonale makes me giggle a little bit.

seems more amblops-ish than telescopus, but a little odd...

That's what I would call it. They were always very common for me too in the Sequatchie.

Yeah Dave I know, but hey that's just as many as I found! I busted my ass up and down every riffle/run there too. The one day we had nice snorkeling visbility I was spinning around through a fast shute and thought I saw one but I wasn't 100% sure because it could have been a blenny and I hadn't seen a snail darter snorkeling yet. It was right at the spot where you said you got them in the past. That land owner was awesome, we went back several times but it never got better than a foot or so vis, alot of silt coming down from the upper reaches as Casper can reiterate. That population seems really variable to me making detection hit or miss. What little TVA data was up and down also.

Eh anyways...I found that rainbows and the spectable complex species from around Cookeville tasted quite good. We never got around to our logperch fish fry though. I'm convinced they would be better than perch but smelt sized pieces.

OK, looking closer at the minnow in question (always a good idea) I can see the amblops-like traits, especially the mouth. My first response was telescope shiner based on the stitched, downward curving lateral line and the large eyes. But that's amblops too. I guess we'll have to forego a taste test.

Yeah, I'm totally buying that it's one fired up amblops. It was taken out of leaf stained tannic water, and I'm just not used to seeing that much "color" on one.

I dunno Matt. If Dave was already watching that one, and they were well documented at that locality... We caught this one pretty danged easy. I always chop seine (this is what I'm calling it now) where I see these sand shoals now that I know the niche, and viola. It was right down in the log-jam-river-runs-left-sand-spit. You're not going to be able to snorkel them there. If that was "clear" as one might assume about waters this time of year (no apparent stain either, which was suprising - probably still forming in the impoundment yet)... I would hate to see turbid.

I talked to Peggy about this a little bit at the conference. I think snail and ashy darter are far more common than we think they are. It's just their niche is in a place where the electrofishing gives them warning before it stuns them, if it's turbid, you can't snorkel them, and if you want to seine them, you have to catch the "just right" part of their niche to make the habitat and seine work together to trap them. Otherwise... They're outta there.

In short... If they're known to be have been present, I've had little trouble catching them at those sites, twice now with the snail darter where I didn't even know I was in a historic locality.

Then there's that whole bit Ed presented on the impoundments aiding larval development of snail darter, now that we're aerating the tailwater and not killing them once they pass the turbines... <evil grin>

Oh, and we did eat some of those other fine Percina...



They were, as you might expect, really tasty. Peeled right off the bone. Yum yum.

Marcus, it's all right in your back yard now When you have time, you don't have money, and when you have money you don't have time. So get into another grad program and take a tour of the SE on Uncle Sam's financing package.

And yeah... Now that I've seen all the greenside work presented (Kyle presented at SFC), and in spite of how much I can't stand some of the splitting (can we just let the vermillion darter go and take it as a lesson to protect watersheds, not species?)... If there's one group that probably should be elevated, it's the blennoides complex. There's 4 species there, guttseli having already been elevated.

However, there are NOT five species present, as was suggested at ASIH and the masters defense I set through two weeks ago (which had been argued successfully by the grad student to change the tune drastically). And I'm not going to argue when I get a trip financed to go get some material from the northern Ozarks next year lol Sometimes it pays to just keep your mouth shut lol.

Dave, sorry to hear about your logistics hell. Hopefully you've been able to use the time to catch up other things. Are you heading out again in the near future then?

Todd

I dunno Matt. If Dave was already watching that one, and they were well documented at that locality... We caught this one pretty danged easy. I always chop seine (this is what I'm calling it now) where I see these sand shoals now that I know the niche, and viola. It was right down in the log-jam-river-runs-left-sand-spit. You're not going to be able to snorkel them there. If that was "clear" as one might assume about waters this time of year (no apparent stain either, which was suprising - probably still forming in the impoundment yet)... I would hate to see turbid.

I talked to Peggy about this a little bit at the conference. I think snail and ashy darter are far more common than we think they are. It's just their niche is in a place where the electrofishing gives them warning before it stuns them, if it's turbid, you can't snorkel them, and if you want to seine them, you have to catch the "just right" part of their niche to make the habitat and seine work together to trap them. Otherwise... They're outta there.

In short... If they're known to be have been present, I've had little trouble catching them at those sites, twice now with the snail darter where I didn't even know I was in a historic locality.

Then there's that whole bit Ed presented on the impoundments aiding larval development of snail darter, now that we're aerating the tailwater and not killing them once they pass the turbines... <evil grin>

Oh I'm totally not saying they aren't there or are holding on by a thread, but Daves 6 is the high and its usually 1 or 2. The trib populations are likely smaller than the tailwater populations just due to the fact the stream is only 40 feet wide versus 200 yards. Once you know where they are, and you've seem to catch on, finding them isn't hard. I totally agree about tanasi and cinereum and think the same about several others. The fact is some fish have life histories that just make them hard as hell to document/detect using traditional means. What you said about electrofishing is exactly what I said to FWS in my final report. Try holding a 20 foot wide x 6 foot high seine, only one person on each side, and one person shocking with a backpack and one person kicking down from 20 feet above the net. You can't hold the net for more than 15-30 seconds where you REALLY need to be. I busted my ass and techs were getting blown away holding seines in the Hiwassee and I shocked 24. I saw 20 on one chub nest the next year at the same EXACT spot, within a couple meters literally. It was almost a meter deep and almost a 1 m/sec flow and the gravel was clean and loose as hell. IMPOSSIBLE to stand with a parachute in your hand essentially. TVA electrofishing data in the Hiwassee, French Broad, etc. were similar to my own but I went back and snorkeled, and had Ed out come with me a few times, it was like whoa that doesn't cut it for their true abundance.

The larval drift thing is awesome. He and I have talked about that for hours. It's a huge can of worms for fish in general and especially for T&E's. Like tanasi "magically" showing up in the Tellico 20+ years after impoundment (c/o huge discharges in april blowing larvae dozens of river miles). Hey if a boat can go 20 or so miles downstrea in 12 hours imagine what a ride a powerless phototaxic larvae gets. The fact is there is no direct evidence of spawning of tanasi in any river, and at best its occuring in the French Broad and Hiwassee just because of the sheer numbers. In reality it's pretty likely the French Broad is the source for 3 other populations, possibly more, because the poor guys are getting shot out of a canon. He show you the neat graph modeling travel time, distance, discharge???

Ed showed a picture (you probably shot it) of a mess of them in an open spot between the plants, and his hypothesis about the shading from the island. I think there's a real opportunity there for an experiment doing some plant removals. I'm familiar with the tailings of those plants like that from French Creek and the Clinch... That's micro-microhabitat for them galore.

They also may have a life history of getting shot down the cannon, we just never had the means (or didn't look) until it was too late.

We screwed it up by putting in hypolimnetic discharges, suffocating them. We're actually watching their return, now that they're making it with the changes in turbines and aeration. I wouldn't be suprised if they show up below Gunthersville in recordable numbers soon. It's too bad there wasn't a genetic imprint taken from the fish stocked in the Elk. With the evidence he gave me, they're on their way there without our help.

dP over dt baybeeee....

There's your thesis of the day

Todd

dP over dt baybeeee....

There's your thesis of the day

May it always be a positive number! (and my blessings upon you)

Ed showed a picture (you probably shot it) of a mess of them in an open spot between the plants, and his hypothesis about the shading from the island. I think there's a real opportunity there for an experiment doing some plant removals. I'm familiar with the tailings of those plants like that from French Creek and the Clinch... That's micro-microhabitat for them galore.

They also may have a life history of getting shot down the cannon, we just never had the means (or didn't look) until it was too late.

We screwed it up by putting in hypolimnetic discharges, suffocating them. We're actually watching their return, now that they're making it with the changes in turbines and aeration. I wouldn't be suprised if they show up below Gunthersville in recordable numbers soon. It's too bad there wasn't a genetic imprint taken from the fish stocked in the Elk. With the evidence he gave me, they're on their way there without our help.

dP over dt baybeeee....

There's your thesis of the day

Todd

Yeah he shot those underwater pictures with me. There are like two or three CD's worth. There is definately something about shading = no macrophytes, but it alost seems like duh no light plants can't live (autocorrelated etc.) On a rivers so wide there's alot of sunlight coming in, and alot of potential macrophyte growth, but some streams, like the Holston and Hiwassee (and Little T accounts) don't have much macrophyte coverage. The plant removal thing is neat too because there are large mats of it, and frequently it gets ripped back like carpet from a high discharge. So you have this open spot of gravel newly formed, and sure enough they'd be on it.

Ed's 9 year snail darter surveying with TVA RRI, coupled with what he did regarding mussels with my advisor (Layzer and Scott 2006), really showed how well a community can recover following the institution of minimum flows and DO.

That is exactly what I said about the genetic marker. You'd know where the source population is now for alot of the tribs, because they surely don't seem large and stable enough to support themselves without augmentation. A lot of population dynamics to be figured out that way!

On their way further downstream...you mean how they progressed downstream the drainage after Tellico was closed in 1980? Yup...it is and will continue to happen. Explains why one shows up all the way down in Huntsville every 10 years. I started to investigate, but got sidetracked away, if high discharge in the TN, French Broad, Hiwassee, preceeded years when they'd show up in downstream tribs.

Those E. sanguifluum are outrageous! I wanna gitme some! Are they protected?
You guys kill me! I'm so jealous!
Kinda reminds me of what one of my boys says about pro football players - "Imagine that, they get PAID to go out and have fun!"
Yes, I know, none of you get paid like pro ball players and some of you aren't getting paid at all, yet. Still, on my fantasy list of dream jobs, what you guys 'n gals do is right up there near the top. Of course, in my fantasies, I don't have so many mouths to feed.
Maybe someday when I decide to check it all and run away from home, one of you guys will be needing a technician. Sure, I've got no fancy degrees [or unfancy ones for that matter], and I'm a little grey around the edges and soft around the middle. Still, my several decades on, in, and under the water is worth a few years of book learnin' [and MUCH cheaper]. I can still snorkle upstream against the current all day long and have energy left to carry the full buckets all the way back to the car. And I don't need a wet suit 'till water temps go below 60F. I'm also a four star camp cook that can make bait and roadkill into a culinary adventure fit for royalty. Plus I never go anywhere without my rod & reel so you wouldn't have to eat those little ittybitty fellers any more. Where do I send my resume?
BTW, how did the P. tanasi taste?

Those E. sanguifluum are outrageous! I wanna gitme some! Are they protected?

Yes, but the system they're in is often clear enough for snorkeling. They're even better when they're bucked up in the springtime. It's definately worth a road trip if you can sneak away.

Kinda reminds me of what one of my boys says about pro football players - "Imagine that, they get PAID to go out and have fun!"

When I first started college, I was sure I wanted to be a fisheries biologist. I was already fishing over 250 days a year at that point, and I liked the idea of working with fish (at that point I didn't know that they don't manage fish -- they manage people). It only took one trip to French Creek as part of an ecology class for me to find my true love. I can still remember those variegate darters as clear as day. Fifteen species of darters, all in the same riffle. Huh? How's that work? Not only that, but there's a diverse minnow community on top of them, along with madtoms and lampreys and...? How are they all partitioning food? Space? I was completely blown away, and it just got progresively worse when I took ichthyology the following semester, started a couple undergrad research projects, then convinced my prof that I needed comparative material from a little farther away and that he should let me take a university vehicle... I developed love affairs with fish and rivers far and wide: the New, the Roanoke, Big Darby, the Clinch (oh, that first day on the Clinch at Kyles Ford...), the Conasauga, Big South Fork, etc. etc. Fieldwork sustained me through the drudgery of grad school (though it was nice being able to drive 45 minutes to a site with 120 species of fish!).

I still break into a grin every time I hit the water. I can't imagine anything else I'd rather be doing. Part of what makes this group so fun for me is seeing folks who are just getting into fish going through the same progression I did, begging or borrowing vehicles for fish-driven road trips, the wonder of discovery with each haul of the seine or each float through a riffle. Winters up there in the NE get mighty cold. Sounds like a great excuse to drag the family south into the center of North American fish diversity... or start saving pennies to hit the Convention next year.

best,
Dave

There are fish at Kyle's Ford? I was always too busy looking into the substrate or on the banks. Speaking of...I'm glad the state finally had the good sense to buy up that land.

Yes, but the system they're in is often clear enough for snorkeling. They're even better when they're bucked up in the springtime. It's definately worth a road trip if you can sneak away.

Actually, E. sanguifluum is not listed... You may be thinking of the Stones sister species E. microlepidum? Microlepidum is a D and probably warrants T with the Nashville sprawl going on. The most recent document I have from TWRA is from 2004. Does anyone have a more recent listing from TN?

http://www.state.tn....l_list_2004.pdf

In spite of its small range, sanguifluum is easily found on most any mainstem riffle in the Collins, Big South Fork, Little South Fork and Rockcastle River (KY) in the higer discharge habitat. They adapt very well to captive aquaria and maintain quite a bit of the red color with a good diet. The fish from the Collins get this silvery color to them, it's immaculate in contrast.

There are, however, a couple endemics, esp in the Collins, so you should be aware of them BEFORE you go collecting. One of them, the bluemask darter, hasn't even recieved a fully fledged name, and is not on this list. Another, the barrens darter, E. forbesi, was readily caught at one of our sites where we caught bloodfin, is an unassuming fish, with a pretty harsh listing as an E (limited range with specific habitat in water cress with lots of cows and potted plant farming going on).

So you really need to do your homework before you take fish out of these systems, if ethical and legal collection is a concern of yours. Snorkelling is never invasive to a population, and snapping some photos to take home is just about the same (although the fish are in your possession at that time). I really encourage you to put your head under the water, you'll never believe what is going on under there.

Much along the lines that Dave was getting at, yeah, I came the same direction. Unfortunately, no one caught my attention when I was in undergrad, and I didn't know about these fish until after the fact, even though I was a bio major. Blew my mind, once I did though. And I got lucky and was making big bucks as a corporate IT guy but still eventually took the plunge to a grad stipened, making the sacrifice to do what I had to do, to do this as much as possible, the rest of my life. I won't have a career fledged until I'm almost 40, but I don't care. I can still have a 30 year career and then retire, if I feel like it But I don't have kids, and kinda rearranged my life 3 years ago. So it wasn't as big a sacrifice as some would have to do the same. It was just tough not getting sushi once a week... Whaaaaaa!

Todd

Alright Todd, those darters are amazing. I want to see more and I definitely want to go there this next summer. I ate creek chubs before never thought of eating darters

I saw a 2007 document a couple months ago and I don't recall it on the list. The records from the Roaring River and Blackburn Fork are probably the only place where they aren't found anymore. The Roaring River site had a rough fish dam put in and is impounded almost immediately afterwards by the Cumberland. Blackburn Fork just doesn't seem like the right place for them. I don't think they've been documented there within a decade or two. It's the closest decent sized stream to TTU and as frequently as fish are sampled there you'd expect them to be found if they were present. Some other streams in KY come to mind but I'm drawing a blank....Horselick Creek maybe...Bluemask still hasn't been described??? Snorkeling in the Collins is always a treat. You might even run into a 36"+ musky, they are everywhere.