Actually, E. sanguifluum is not listed... You may be thinking of the Stones sister species E. microlepidum?

Yeah, disregard that. Even worse - I was thinking aquali. It's what I get for posting pre-coffee! Thanks for catching that, Todd.

Todd, if you need sushi, don't cook the darters next time... (I had to say it)

Yeah, disregard that. Even worse - I was thinking aquali. It's what I get for posting pre-coffee! Thanks for catching that, Todd.

I don't care if I have to subsidize, abduct your PI, abduct you.... You're going to be in TN sometime in May, my friend! You've been away too long

We saw some of them on the Duck, but I didn't take any pictures. How shameful is it that I could just nonchalantly overlook that photo? Well, I guess I could just add it from this spring.

http://www.farmertod...heek_Darter.htm

I'm proposing some community studies using these Duck and Collins species assemblages. The Collins is nice (or any TN river), you can pick up 6 - 8 or so darter species over varying habitat heterogeneity. But the Duck... In a single gravel run that's maybe 30 meters long, you can easily catch 12 species in 30 minutes? And this is a community that has two subgenera represented by multiple species (3 in one and 2 in the other, with the possibility of a 4th in the 3 species one downstream), in a longitudinal migration of genes? That's sick. What the heck is the partition?? Resources aren't limiting... Space is! And as such... Species are competing within themselves (intraspecific), not with other species. Lotka Volterra that!

And then there's the same thing going on in French Creek and Big Darby, as Dave mentioned, but slightly less pronounced than in the Duck. But, those streams are most cool because they were all glaciated. So those fish communities formed in the last 13,000 years. And that brings another point up... What about these glacial lake outlets that fish supposedly got across moraines... Did these fish get through while they were open as we've described? I've talked to our glacial geologists and they're telling me that when those river connections were open, they were cold, braided, flowing mud that were seasonally variable (feast and famine) streams. Does that sound like darter habitat? Redside dace? Longear sunfish? Oh, let's look in Michigan... Weed, ironcolor, popeye shiners? You find those a lot of times in muddy, cold rivers, right? Crazy stuff.

Matt... USFW has a ditty: http://www.fws.gov/c...cs/bluemask.htm

Ed had said that the fella who spoke at SFC on this fish will be joining TVA in their assessment, as they're taking responsibility for the fragmentation. He's described it, and it's in the process of getting elevated (I just don't understand the [Doration] name class, what's that all about?). It's probably in press and at least the Feds and Staties are waiting for it to come out formally before they use any names. Boy I wish I could find my abstracts. I'm wondering if I'm just forgetting if he formally said it.

Oh and for your Kyle's Ford comment Matt. Yeah. Didn't you see all the mountain madtoms when you picked up the shells?

Todd

I'll be in TN in May. We struck out on Notropis ariommus prior to spawning season this year, so I'm already planning on a dedicated effort next spring. I'll likely be covering some ground too, there's still a couple pops that I don't have samples from yet.

Yeah... It sure would be worth getting some microhabitat data for each species in both systems. You have access to a good flowmeter?

As for those glacial outlets, that mud would have stabilized fast once some vegetation got established. Glacially-influenced streams in Alaska that I've played in were silty and turbid and braided, but almost always had a few clear-water side-channels that were likely seasonally connected to the main channels... which while it wouldn't be great E. caeruleum or E. zonale habitat, would provide rather nice habitat for E. exile, E. nigrum or E. microperca - all the species that DID get through!

just something to think about...

We've got a decent one that we'll try out first. I'd really like to have one with depth measurements on the stick though. It will simplify things greatly. I've been eyebally to a couple different ones, but I haven't gotten that far into the proposal yet.

But caerulum did get through... Along with E.b. philodotum, E.b. blennoides (Amanda recovered both), spectabile, flabellare, copelandi, shumardi, evides and etc. And then there's all the cyprinids and catostomids we've lost or fragmented the bazoo out of because it got too silty?

Someone does need to look at microperca though... Their current distribution suggests a migration southward, no problem... Until you get into those danged Little Miami and Paint Creek populations in Ohio. And I'm not sure where they occur in KY.

So the veg sets up pretty quick, huh? But that's where there is a seed bank. Hrm. But then again, the Atlantic plain disjunct plants got through the Hudson Mohawk and across to Illinois pretty dang fast.

I guess one hypothesis that I'm interested in is the role of buried ice in the moraines, and what types of connections those provided. If topminnows can move across 3 miles of fields through minimal karst in contemporary northern Ohio, it's not much of a leap for us to think about these blocks melting and flowing different directions from under the moraine. The kicker here? There's no kettles on the Wabash moraine!

Todd

You might even run into a 36"+ musky, they are everywhere.

Ok, that clinches it! I officially have a solid destination for my winter daydreaming, er I mean trip planning.
That general area has been high on the list for awhile. It has some great herps, is a good area for finding projectile points [arrowheads], the darters and minnows are worth the trip alone, and now you tell me musky are "everywhere". What more can I ask for?
Well, I don't suppose there are many shopping malls with outlet stores? For some reason my wife has a hard time with me and the boys taking a vacation without her.

Don't worry Todd, my dipnetting, snake catchin', lure tossin' and rock huntin' is always done legally and ethically. My field partners are my sons. If I contribute nothing else to this world, I will at least have raised four conscientious, respectful and responsible young men. That can only be done by setting an example whether at home, on the street or in the woods.

I'll have to keep an eye out for any group adventures that might come up in the area. It's always more fun when you get to meet folks from around the map.

Tennessee in May and need access to a good flow meter...hmmmm I wonder who could get one This guy could. I really need to get back there anyways = I'm free, I've got places to stay, lets get something worked out!

You've got 10-13ish or so that confined in the Little River too. A few different species also.

Their taking responsibility for the fragmentation of bluemasks?!?! It's an Army Corps dam. TVA bought it from them however many years ago. What's funny about that is USGS wouldn't let Layzer say the dam was responsible for fragmentation of the population (the 0% speculation policy), yet TVA is bringing it upon themselves. Yeah I swore I was toldit was finally described or in the process when I was leaving Tennessee after the breadth of other work they had done to accompany it.

You mean the SOB's that stung me three times?

Believe me Matt, we're workin' on sumthin' Yeah, I need to get into the Little River yet. I've been there twice and it's been dangerously flooded both times. Do you find the species packing like you see on the Duck et al? I've been curious to get down toward Maryville where you start to tip the nutrient balance toward the sweet spot.

Don't worry Todd, my dipnetting, snake catchin', lure tossin' and rock huntin' is always done legally and ethically. My field partners are my sons. If I contribute nothing else to this world, I will at least have raised four conscientious, respectful and responsible young men. That can only be done by setting an example whether at home, on the street or in the woods.

Like the hokey pokey.... That's what it's all about

If you based yourself in Franklin TN, she would have EASY access (perhaps too easy) to all sorts of shopping in Franklin and in Nashville. Columbia has a lot of antique stuff, if that's her bag too. The natural beauty of the area is pretty bleek. However, west of Columbia is goregous, with a change in geology that renders the water crystal clear.

For a vacation that the whole family LOVES, that'll suit your fish and herp desires as well as suit her any shopping desires, along with any-skill-level hikes, and some stunning natural beauty, may I suggest the Asheville, NC area? It really has it all. If there are more cosmopolitan concerns, you can stay right in Asheville, hotel and restaurants at any "level" you're willing to pay. If you're a more rustic group, head down a little south to Brevard and git right into it.

It's a little tricky to figure out what sections are trout streams (I just highlight those segments in pink highlighter from the fishing regs... And you can always snorkel those! There's lots of accesses ) and what's left are really nice access to redline, gilt, swannanoa, banded darters with saffron and warpaint shiners in great abundances (without any species you can get yourself in trouble with, besides the Governences's Trout ™). Really nice site on the Mills River right off the highway (completely ugly site, unbelieveable fish). Big opportunities for snorkelling too... I'm told the Davidson River is packed with hellbender from the trout hatchery's "paradox of enrichment". The trout farm is pretty cool to see as well. There's what looks like a neat nature center, but it was closed when I was there. And as I'm sure you know, that's ground zero for salamander diversity.

Best of all... It's WAY closer to Mass than central TN. But I do understand the draw to see some of these other fish Redline and gilt darters aren't anything to just toss aside!

http://gallery.nanfa...a/rufilineatum/

http://gallery.nanfa...percina/evides/

Todd

Good stuff Todd, thanks!
I love NC. I've made several collecting trips [more herps but some fish] to the coastal areas. Always said I wanted to see the rest of the state.
TN is higher on the list though. If nothing else it's so different from what I've seen.
Sorry for hijacking your thread!

[quote name='farmertodd' date='Nov 18 2007, 10:08 AM' post='23643']
Believe me Matt, we're workin' on sumthin' Yeah, I need to get into the Little River yet. I've been there twice and it's been dangerously flooded both times. Do you find the species packing like you see on the Duck et al? I've been curious to get down toward Maryville where you start to tip the nutrient balance toward the sweet spot.
Like the hokey pokey.... That's what it's all about


One riffle/run sequence a bit upstream of Maryville maybe 30-40 feet wide 100 ft long (not very big area, might have a picture for ya too ) and I got.

E. simoterum, rufilineaturm, camurum, vulneratum, zonale, blenniodes, jessiae, cinereum, percnurum, P. tanasi, evides, aurantiaca, caprodes, former macrocephela, and burtoni.

FIFETEEN!

So yeah not like May 18-25th PLEASE

Little River has a sweet campsite on an island with a great shoal and huge bluffed pool behind it with canoe rentals from a really great guy.

[quote name='farmertodd' date='Nov 18 2007, 04:10 AM' post='23625']
... In a single gravel run that's maybe 30 meters long, you can easily catch 12 species in 30 minutes? And this is a community that has two subgenera represented by multiple species (3 in one and 2 in the other, with the possibility of a 4th in the 3 species one downstream), in a longitudinal migration of genes? That's sick. What the heck is the partition?? Resources aren't limiting... Space is! And as such... Species are competing within themselves (intraspecific), not with other species. Lotka Volterra that!

I have question about the fish population you are describing, i.e. 12 species in one gravel run.
How does the overall number of individuals compare to similar habitat with less diversity?
Are there more fish in total numbers or the same number spread between several species?
Do all those species breed in the same habitat and if so, do they all have diverse reproduction statagies?
Do they compete for prime breeding areas?
Ok that's two questions.
It's hard for me to wrap my mind around such diversity having lived my whole life in a place where there are only two species of darter and they never mix!

I have question about the fish population you are describing, i.e. 12 species in one gravel run.
How does the overall number of individuals compare to similar habitat with less diversity?
Are there more fish in total numbers or the same number spread between several species?
Do all those species breed in the same habitat and if so, do they all have diverse reproduction statagies?
Do they compete for prime breeding areas?
Ok that's two questions.
It's hard for me to wrap my mind around such diversity having lived my whole life in a place where there are only two species of darter and they never mix!

Hi Mike,

The numbers of individuals is comparable to any other stream that's in the "sweet spot" of eutrophication. That is... There is enough enrichment in the stream that it supports high abundances of individuals (ie tons of food available), but not to the point where it's gone over some "edge" and has compromised the robustness of the macroinvert community that they're feeding on. This is true in other streams of the SE, the list of streams Dave and I have been mentioning, and even into the Great Lakes drainages, such as the tributary streams of the Maumee and Sandusky, which only have a couple potential species, but those species' abundances are incredible.

In these streams, on these riffles, I would say the average seine haul is 100-150 individual darters, irrespective of species richness. It's really sick in Honey Creek, for example, to pick up a seine load of 50 spawning philodotum greensides (we call this "burn your eyes out green"), and 75 spawning "Great Lakes" rainbows which have this immaculate tinsel navy blue and hot orange.

However, in the Duck, for example, you get the same number of individuals... Just there's 4 or 5 species present per haul instead of 2. So the overall abundance of individuals is the same. Biomass is probably the same. What's different are compositions of species.

Your next question is the essence of what I'd like to quantify. Where these species are in "space" reads like a neighborhood map, except the differences seem to be 1) discharge 2) depth and 3) substrate size in what seems to be decending in that order of importance.

In April and May, you have greenside, rainbow, snubnose, banded, saffron and speckled darter densely packed and doing their business in the shallower, smaller cobble (raquetball size and less) with greenside in the fastest, deepest, giving way to banded, yeilding to snubnose and then finding saffron in margins with water willow and speckled where it's slow and without cover.

I will call this gradient "in-order" starting with greensides to speckled. It's a gradient with larger individuals of lower "in-order" species mixing in with sub-dominant higher "in-order" species, and etc. Does that make sense?

And there's redlines and subadult coppercheek mixed in among them.

Part of the competition for breeding space may be alleviated in part by the subgenus Nothonotus darters spawning later in the year. That knocks off 3 species. They're all using what appears to be the same habitat together, with the exception of the gold darter doing their business in tighter places (they're tiny). And where this is isn't where you see the others spawn. These guys are in the deeper, higher discharge that washes away raquetball sized-and-less rocks, and you move to a softball to bowling ball sized material.

You might also find it interesting that the two species in Ulocentra (snubnose and saffron) occur next door to each other, and have juveniles that are extremely difficult to tell apart.

And then you have your specialist, the ashy, which occurs in pools next to extreme discharge. Strangely, you find subadults in downcutting bed material stabilized by water willow, which may really be the same microhabitat, just smaller (ie they're hanging out in that very thin sliver of still water in the willow). I'd really like to get an insight into this. This may illustrate how spatially THIN these "niches" can be.

So there's Etheostoma lol.

Percina? In the Duck, Percina seem to be specialists. Logperch are the most abundant species, but they're never dominant in abundances. And the others are exclusively in their specialist niches like the dusky (woody debris) or uncommon species (in this system) like slenderhead and blackside that seem to be generalists left over in TN from Pleistocene climate compression (both dominate systems in other parts, but are in decline in TN).

In Matt's example of the Little River... Etheostoma holds pretty much the same with the substitution of wounded darter for gold darter, and a subgenus Catanotus addition (which if we put some slabs in this Duck riffle, how much you wanna bet we'd get nigripinne to show up? ) and then some other specialist (tangerine and snail) or uncommon Percina (blotchside logperch). (Matt what about gilt? Or ashy, for that matter? Are they there?) I'd also like to see what the heterogeneity of that Little River riffle is like. Because heterogeneous is the last word I'd use to describe this Duck riffle I'm describing. Its deepest point is less than a meter, and that was the pool in which we found the ashy pictured (and he's a hawg). I'll try and post some pics of the site tomorrow (along with our dam removal pictures and movies from today!).

And then you're pretty much out of the cast of characters at either site. Is that because all habitats and resources are being used? Has time gone on long enough to provide enough evolution to saturate the use of ALL resources (both food and space) in these systems? OR are we just getting a snapshot in time, where if in another million years, we'd see a riffle with 30 species of darters?

On the applied angle... What are the implications of this on understanding invasive species? Could an invasive benthic species like the round goby successfully invade this community? What about Great Lakes darter community where the cast of characters is limited?

Those are my questions... And I'll be copying and pasting this into my proposal, so nobody can use (steal) this one! This is MY project, dangit.

Todd

There is a catanotus representative in the mainstem Duck isn't there??? Yup gilts and ashy were both there and the gilts were kinda common (like the Hiwassee). Last time I was there I saw at least half a dozen burtoni and the artist formerly known as macrocephela. Only have got one ashy from that specific site before, but also downstream. Yes your right the Duck riffles tend to be pretty homogeneous, but that Little River segment is really different. The top is a gravel riffle/run around and island. It meets and becomes a deeper run with larger substrate, then it forms a glide/pool with boulders small gravel and lots of sand. It's the perfect transition zone with everything habitat wise. I'd totally agree that the biomass is at least equal. When I was shocking in the Little River we'd have seine fulls of darters from a 15 x 20 area. Defiantely your thin niches too at that site.

I'd rank depth below substrate after what I've been hearing about benthic trawls in the BIG rivers and just my own observations. An increase in discharge in a given area like a simple U channel would modify depth and fish tend to say with the discharge they can exploit best. The substrate deposited is also a function of discharge too, right? Since we're talking variables...why haven't more fish taken advantage of snails! Those leptoxis and pleurococid snails are all over the Duck and most of TN and Cumberland streams. Yet only one small subgenus makes them a dominant part of their diet? Are so many non darters exploiting snails that they passed on the chance because they sure seem visibly available in abundance. And if they can eat 2 mm snails, why not 2 mm unionids?

In a million years all the darters in the S.E. will be extinct (insert sarcasm)

There is a catanotus representative in the mainstem Duck isn't there???

Yes, nigripinne. That's where it'd be interesting to put a couple slabs in there and see if they show up.

Yes your right the Duck riffles tend to be pretty homogeneous, but that Little River segment is really different. The top is a gravel riffle/run around and island. It meets and becomes a deeper run with larger substrate, then it forms a glide/pool with boulders small gravel and lots of sand. It's the perfect transition zone with everything habitat wise.

I would expect this. That would make a nice comparison if I can quantify the heterogeneity differential between the two. Man that is going to be a ton of work to survey enough replicates. Yes, this can actually turn into work

I'd rank depth below substrate after what I've been hearing about benthic trawls in the BIG rivers and just my own observations.

This is an extremely good point. Thank you for making it.

In a million years all the darters in the S.E. will be extinct (insert sarcasm)

Nah, we're not that good. Disease will knock us back into 500,00 BCE, and the remaining darters will start speciating again

Todd

OK, cool. Very interesting.
Let me tell you where my mind is going with this. [You hafta unnerstand, I have a restless brian that is not fully engaged by my full time job.]
You say that Percina is more specialized which I interpret to mean competition is limited between species within the genus. To me, that implies that the species evolved together within their shared habitat.
Etheostoma, if I understand correctly, uses similar breeding and feeding stratigies with seperation between species mainly by varying preference for substrate and/or flow. To me this implies more competition between species, especially for breeding sites. Would it not follow that if they evolved together over long periods, they would have worked out breeding stratigies that seperated them into different niches? Or, if sharing/competing for breeding areas over long periods, possibly hybridized and speciated?
Taking all that together, would it be reasonable to deduce Percina was there first and Etheostoma came later?
If so, puts the whole introduced exotic question in a new light.

Percina is considered to be basal to Etheostoma. Arguably the Etheostoma species are more sharply separated by sexual selection mechanisms involving more display colorations than Percina, and these mechanisms have helped shape a wide adaptive speciation also involving the many niche separations that Todd described above. Having said that, I realize that I know nothing about pheromones released and recognized by different species which could be the most powerful species-specific mechanism of them all. Fish are sensitive to such pheromones (variously small proteins and progesterone-like steroids) down to a concentration of 10(-11) M, which is vanishingly small. All kinds of mechanisms can be involved in separating species, and generally keeping them separate.

Percina is considered to be basal to Etheostoma. Arguably the Etheostoma species are more sharply separated by sexual selection mechanisms involving more display colorations than Percina, and these mechanisms have helped shape a wide adaptive speciation also involving the many niche separations that Todd described above.

Ah yes, the crazy coloration! I should have thought about that! After all, it is one of the primary features that attracted our attention as fish lovers.
The reason I am spending time contemplating this is that I'm always lamenting the paucity of species diversity here in New England when it comes to fish and herps. Climate alone doesn't explain it as there are several species which range well into Canada in the midwest which would seem to be well suited to our climate and habitat. No doubt glaciation plays some role here.
It is interesting to me that we have only two darter species. For that matter, they could have split from one species at some point.
How did it/they get here?
If they could why not others?
Something else that interests me is the apparent connection between some species in the midwest and northeast. Two examples off the top of my head are blandings turtle and bluespot salamanders. Both midwest species with disjunct northeastern populations [well, bluespot may have a connected band across the northern states.
How'd they get here?
Why not more species?

Most of New England was under several kilometers of ice until about 12,000 years ago so there hasn't been much time for recolonization as the ice retreated, and the climate slowly warmed. It might be surprising that there are as many as two species of darter in Massachusetts given that time frame, and that various river systems like the Ohio were re-establishing themselves with nothing like a direct connection to modern New England. Swamp darters probably had it easier in recolonizing New England, because they could disperse up the coast as conditions improved. The southeast was a major refuge during the last glaciation, but of course different organisms have different dispersal capabilities.

Actually once off the face the glacier, the climate quickly warmed. Remember the warmest recent climate was during the climatic maximum 9,000 - 5,000 BPE due to the Milankovitch Cycle, which probably brought the northern hemisphere out of the glaciation. If you want to read more about this, here's a good start: http://en.wikipedia....limatic_optimum

During this time, you had all this barrens habitat persisting on the glacial outwash all along the Great Lakes and Sea of Champlain basin, which would have been suitable for for blandings turtles and bluespotted salamanders. These species had one advantage that fish do not have... They can walk from one puddle to the next. Climate cooled a bit and got wetter... Succession of the plant communities went from herbaceous to woody, and now climate has fragmented these populations.

Paired with limited connection times, limited species dispersal (Lake Erie was a closed basin at this time for 5000 years), and a depauperated east coast fauna... You have a really boring fish community It may also twist your mind to think that the prevailing glacial refugia on the northern east coast was out on the Continental Shelf. Everything you know as "land" was buried in ice. What you look out and see as "ocean" was dry land. Well, maybe when you're on a boat out a ways.

So between the glacier wiping it clean, and then limited connectivity due to mountains blocking connectivity, there just aren't that many species available for recolonization.

Todd

It may also twist your mind to think that the prevailing glacial refugia on the northern east coast was out on the Continental Shelf. Todd

No surprises there. That's the same reason more ancient archaeological sites aren't found here. Most of the early humans settled along the coast in places that today are well under water.
Ok now I've officially sidetracked this post far enough.
Thanks guys.