Live Sand Tank?

What kind of sand did you buy from Home Depot? Paving sand, or play sand? I'm thinking if I buy sand from a pool supply store, it will be relatively clean and free of silicates. (If the sand made the swimming pool cloudy or encouraged algae growth, then they probably couldn't sell much of it.)

Most sand is made of silicates. It doesn't promote algae, just diatoms. Neither would be a problem in swimming pools because of the disinfectent [chlorine etc].

Aren't diatoms a type of green algae?

Well, I'll let you know if the pool sand encourages diatom growth.

Most sand is made of silicates. It doesn't promote algae, just diatoms. Neither would be a problem in swimming pools because of the disinfectent [chlorine etc].

[quote name='Bob' date='Nov 30 2007, 04:57 PM' post='24937']
Aren't diatoms a type of green algae?/quote]

[Disclaimer: I'm not a scientist and I'm typing this from memory without benifit of references so please step in if you edakated folks see me go astry ]
No, diatoms are single cell organisms that have a "shell" made from silica [hence diatomaceous "earth" is superfine sand- like silica material made from dead diatoms]. There has to be a sufficient amount of disolved silica in the water for them to form. A sandy substrate is usually enough to provide the disolved silicates needed.
Unlike algae, diatoms don't get out of control and blanket everything with thick layers of slime. The coverage on glass and decorations and substrate amounts to a thin brown coating which gives the tank a natural "lived in" look, at least to my eye. Light colored sand substrate does get a dingy look after awhile but if you stir it up, it goes away. Usually all you have to do is scrape the front glass once and awhile and ignore it in the rest of the tank and it can grow for years without really causing any aesthetic concerns [unless you're a clean freak who prefers a sterile looking artificial habitat for your critters ].
I'm NOT a clean freak and am lazy when it come to nonessential tank maintenence so I actually prefer diatoms over algae. That is one reason I go with sand or sand/gravel mix in all my tanks. I believe [but have no supporting data] that a healthy growth of diatoms in a moderately lit tank locks up enough of the dissolved nutrients to keep yuckie algae from getting established.
One interesting observation I have made is that diatoms form quickest and grow thickest in strong current. I have learned to not have powerheads or filters blowing directly onto the front glass. This is true in both fresh and salt water. I would assume different types live in fresh or salt, but if so, they share that trait.

i think that i just found something really good. i bought a bag of that "tube sand"--on sale everywhere right now, we're getting lots of snow--and strained it with fiberglass window screen. i found it worked best to bundle the screen around a grapefruit-sized pile of sand, then shake in a pail of water. i ended up with multi-colored, pretty small gravel that looks very nice.

i had tried the same thing with "paving sand" purchased at Home Depot, which produced a gravel with many pieces too big for my taste. i am going to go get more tube sand.

What's tube sand? (I bought a 50 lb bag of sand for use in swimming pool filters. I figure it would require less washing than other types of sand--something that would be hard for me to make the time for.

i think that i just found something really good. i bought a bag of that "tube sand"--on sale everywhere right now, we're getting lots of snow--and strained it with fiberglass window screen. i found it worked best to bundle the screen around a grapefruit-sized pile of sand, then shake in a pail of water. i ended up with multi-colored, pretty small gravel that looks very nice.

i had tried the same thing with "paving sand" purchased at Home Depot, which produced a gravel with many pieces too big for my taste. i am going to go get more tube sand.

"Tube sand" is sand sold in tough plastic bags (not intended to be opened). The bags are thrown in the back of your pickup truck to provide extra weight for traction in the snow. I do not know how consistent the material would be, but they are relatively cheap.

"Tube sand" is sand sold in tough plastic bags (not intended to be opened). The bags are thrown in the back of your pickup truck to provide extra weight for traction in the snow. I do not know how consistent the material would be, but they are relatively cheap.

Note that tube sand is generally a more evenly-graded "utility sand" that does usually have a higher fine content (dust) compared to a typical play sand that has been washed or sieved to make it safer for kids to eat... but will have larger grains than play sand, also.

This is a great thread, I'm interested to hear what other people are doing. I'm setting up a tank now with a deep sand bed. I read Todd's article and wanted to try it. It's a 20 High tank that I am going to keep flagfish in.

I've read Diana Walstad's book and had good results in the past with dirt covered with gravel. It really gets the plants off to a great start. I collected my own dirt locally, it's a nice dark sandy soil, not as rich as potting soil.

I put a 1" layer of the dirt around the back and sides, since that's where most of the plants will go. I bought a bag of flourite and two 20 lb bags of some aragonite sand from the marine side of my LFS. I splurged on the sand because it's nice looking. I dumped in the first bag of sand and then the flourite. Then I mixed them up with my hands. Then I dumped in the second bag of sand. It's four inches deep.

I'm ready to start planting now. I hope the plants do well, it will be interesting to see. I have municipal water. It's very soft, but has a high pH, so I don't know if it will actually pick up much hardness from the aragonite. I've been buffering the water with aragaMILK to avoid pH swings.

Here is a link to a related discussion regarding pool filter sand and what is and isn't appropriate sand for planted aquariums. Generally, people seem to recommend avoiding playground sand and other sands that have fine particles sizes.

http://www.aquaticpl...ilter-sand.html

If you're shooting for a Walstad type substrate then you need some soil capped with something will relatively large grains. I would probably avoid fine grain sands because they are likely to cause the substrate to go anaerobic... Pool filter sand and some blasting sands may have sufficiently large grains sizes to work fine.

Walstad lists the over availability of iron as a likely source for algae problems so clay may work but may have that negative effect along with going anaerobic.

You can find plants in nature growing in all sorts of substrates so a lot is possible. However, extreme environments probably select for plants with specific traits and narrow the list of plants that will work with the substrate. If you want a generally good media then I would go with a soil capped with pool sand/gravel. Otherwise, somethings will thrive and some will die.

Good luck. Kurt

If you're shooting for a Walstad type substrate then you need some soil capped with something will relatively large grains. I would probably avoid fine grade sands because they are likely to cause the substrate to go anaerobic... Pool filter sand and some plasting sands may have sufficiently large grains sizes to work fine.

I find that anaerobic conditions in the planted tank are just fine (and I suspect that FarmerTodd would agree with me). Wetlands and pond/lake sediments are by their very nature anoxic, and aquatic plants have special mechanisms for dealing with this (they actually transport O2 to their roots). If there are concerns about hydrogen sulfide if the substrate is disturbed (e.g. ripping out a large plant), then a dose of hydrogen peroxide will neutralize it.

The problem I have found with fine sand is that mulm tends to accumulate on top of the sand and does not filter down into the lower substrate.

ndtii

I find that anaerobic conditions in the planted tank are just fine (and I suspect that FarmerTodd would agree with me). Wetlands and pond/lake sediments are by their very nature anoxic, and aquatic plants have special mechanisms for dealing with this (they actually transport O2 to their roots). If there are concerns about hydrogen sulfide if the substrate is disturbed (e.g. ripping out a large plant), then a dose of hydrogen peroxide will neutralize it.

The problem I have found with fine sand is that mulm tends to accumulate on top of the sand and does not filter down into the lower substrate.

I agree.
Don't forget, the denitrification cycle that converts nitrate to nitrogen gas takes place in an anaerobic condition. That's what the "deep sand bed" filters made popular in the 90s by the saltwater crowd were supposedly designed for. Of course that does assume you get some amount of minimul flow through the sand bed.

Awhile back I broke down a planted tank that had run for almost 8 years. It was clay kitty litter with natural river sand on top. The clay had the consistency of goey mud and the sand was fine enough to be packed pretty tight. The tank was planted with C wendtii [or whatever the correct spelling is] which had covered every inch of surface. After 7+ years, there were no black stinky anaerobic pockets anywhere in the substrate. The plant roots apparently kept things moving enough.

I do totally agree with NativePlanter. In fact, I made the "mistake" of compressing my clay based soil under my fine grained "bad" Quickcrete sand to find it go mildly anoxic, evidenced by the rust veins (what is this technical word?) along the root hairs, which are an indicator of wetlands, as iron is oxidized into a more stable and less toxic form (and look at everything dying!). Woo hoo, who knew?

 deepsand.jpg   75.19KB   1 downloads

I think where this has gotten a bad rep in the aquarium plant world is that people start with STERILE substrates, with plants that were grown in STERILE hydroponic cultures that didn't have nature in place to do its business. For example, here's a nice paper discussing how missing some key bacteria might cause problems for some plants related to many used in aquaria:

http://aem.asm.org/c.../full/65/6/2758

There are some plant species that inject oxygen into the substrate (I also have some evidence that certain mussel species do this as well!). But in most cases for the most species of plants, a little oxidizing bacteria from native live substrates can go a long long way.

Nature knows best. It's only spent a billion and a half years figuring it out!

Todd

Interesting article, FarmerTodd. I wasn't aware of the bacteriological connection. I'm a bit confused, however - is a causal effect really shown or is it just an association?

BTW, The term you are thinking of is oxidized rhizosphere.

I wouldn't really say that plants "inject" O2 into the soil; rather, the roots are just leaky. Since the roots need to respire, O2 is pumped and/or diffused to them from the leaves/stems. But in the areas of the roots where the membrane is thin, O2 leaks out (called radial oxygen loss). This can be all over the root for some species, and just in the root tips for others.

Thanks Laura

Good point and that's the one question I had for them... What happens when you reverse the question? Starting with "no cells" how much Fe2+ do you end up with? It'd be easy to do with an antibiotic wipe. That would eliminate any autocorrelation in my mind.

So the radial loss is more like a chicken and egg thing... Well, excepting that the physical properties of the soil were always under the same constraints. It was moreso just which plants did a better job mitigating energy loss in respiration vs poisoning.

In any case, the only things that have caused any kind of hinderance to plants for me are 1) too cold of water like I have right now (man, the val is NOT liking the 40 degrees but the elodea is eating it up) or 2) exhaustion of micronutrients.

And by having that sand on top, you get a wonderful matrix of cyanobacteria that'll fix some of that stuff back. You can see it in the picture there.

I use canister filters to cut down on the mulm.

All the rest is just good fun.

Todd

I do totally agree with NativePlanter. In fact, I made the "mistake" of compressing my clay based soil under my fine grained "bad" Quickcrete sand to find it go mildly anoxic, evidenced by the rust veins (what is this technical word?) along the root hairs, which are an indicator of wetlands, as iron is oxidized into a more stable and less toxic form (and look at everything dying!). Woo hoo, who knew?

 deepsand.jpg   75.19KB   1 downloads

I think where this has gotten a bad rep in the aquarium plant world is that people start with STERILE substrates, with plants that were grown in STERILE hydroponic cultures that didn't have nature in place to do its business. For example, here's a nice paper discussing how missing some key bacteria might cause problems for some plants related to many used in aquaria:

http://aem.asm.org/c.../full/65/6/2758

There are some plant species that inject oxygen into the substrate (I also have some evidence that certain mussel species do this as well!). But in most cases for the most species of plants, a little oxidizing bacteria from native live substrates can go a long long way.

Nature knows best. It's only spent a billion and a half years figuring it out!

Todd

Wow thats nice how many watts per gallon do you use and what type light and do you use Co2 ? My vals outside grow by the minute send runners everywhere but inside they are so so nothing close to yours .

thanks

Sal

Hey thanks

The lights on that tank are 175 watt halide (5500 kelvin Venture).

The substrate "breathes" so much I don't have to use CO2. In fact, I HAVE to run air pumps at night when photosynthesis stops and only respiration is going on.

Todd

Todd,
I've always been meaning to ask: what temperature does your tank get to under those metal halide lamps?

Hi All; Just thoughtI'd leap out of "Lurk" mode long enough to share a few of my 50+ years of growing aqaurium plants. I've probably tried every new fad that ever hit the aquarium world, but, in the last 35 years I've only kept my planted tanks one way. I use just whatever the cheapest play or blasting sand thats available and seed the substrate with a couple of handfuls of sand from an estatablished tank. Cram the tank full of fast growing plants and plenty of fish (but a little less fish than the tank can handle) put at least 10 hrs of light (using the watts/gal about 2+) and lower the time amount by half hour inclements when alge shows up until you get low alge and good growth. I never wash anything, never clean anything (waste of time as most bacteria have a spore air floating stage at sometime anyway and if you bring fish home in bags you'll transfer a few from the bag or water dropplets to your tank). My plants will always overgrow my tanks in very short times. There are no filters of any kind in my tanks, just water circulators. I'm including a couple of pics of my 180 and a 40 gal I use to quarenteen fish before putting them in the 180. I pull about a 5 gal (loosley packed) Home Depot bucket full out of the 180 every two to three weeks and about that much from the 30 every 4 to 5 weeks. I use just what ever trace element stuff I can get at the Pet Stupid store and just feed the fish every other day with cichlid pellets (small) and frozen whatever. I've raised plants and fish in my garages commercially for years this way and have had very few losses of flora or fauna. Of course YMMV and the usual lawyer talk of not being responsible but you can ask any of the pet shops here in Savannah about my plants and tanks.

Thanks,Jim

Nativeplanter,

The temp depends on the room really. They don't produce a tangible amount more heat that you would get from an equivalent wattage of flourescent lighting. Yes, it is a factor in a sunlit room in the summer. No, it's not a factor in my "no heat" 3 season room in the winter.

So my biggest heat issue is what the temp is outside. When it is a factor, I have an air condition on the room to control the temp. It never gets over 76 in there.


JimJim,

Thanks for this post. It's always amusing to me when I get talking about this method when the people who've figured this out aeons ago pipe up and are like "Yep." Why this is still shaking the earth and garnering debate is beyond me...

I think the classic moment in my experience with this type of substrate was when a friend was refused a bag of sand at Home Depot because the kid found out why he wanted it and wasn't about to facilitate my friend "killing animals". Now if fish stores could only get this kind of attitude...

But whatever. Tom Bombadil never got involved with the others characters of Middle Earth because he was just enjoying the growing things. Maybe that's the best advice from fiction going forward in reality. I ain't fighting to change anyone's minds any more

Todd

I finally settled on pool sand, as it was supposed to take less washing. It's a shallow sand bed, as I chickened out on the deep sand bed in the last minute. I put the sand down on top of some egg crate, and put some rocks on top of the egg crate before putting the sand down. In back of the rock pile, I planted some Potomac River val, which I've been growing in my other tanks for several years now. The plants are under a 65 watt 21 inch compact flourescent. At a fish club auction, I bought three baby albino bristlenose plecos and added them to the tank. I put the lights on for about ten hours a day, and am waiting for the plants to grow.

Hi All; Just thoughtI'd leap out of "Lurk" mode long enough to share a few of my 50+ years of growing aqaurium plants. I've probably tried every new fad that ever hit the aquarium world, but, in the last 35 years I've only kept my planted tanks one way. I use just whatever the cheapest play or blasting sand thats available and seed the substrate with a couple of handfuls of sand from an estatablished tank. Cram the tank full of fast growing plants and plenty of fish (but a little less fish than the tank can handle) put at least 10 hrs of light (using the watts/gal about 2+) and lower the time amount by half hour inclements when alge shows up until you get low alge and good growth. I never wash anything, never clean anything (waste of time as most bacteria have a spore air floating stage at sometime anyway and if you bring fish home in bags you'll transfer a few from the bag or water dropplets to your tank). My plants will always overgrow my tanks in very short times. There are no filters of any kind in my tanks, just water circulators. I'm including a couple of pics of my 180 and a 40 gal I use to quarenteen fish before putting them in the 180. I pull about a 5 gal (loosley packed) Home Depot bucket full out of the 180 every two to three weeks and about that much from the 30 every 4 to 5 weeks. I use just what ever trace element stuff I can get at the Pet Stupid store and just feed the fish every other day with cichlid pellets (small) and frozen whatever. I've raised plants and fish in my garages commercially for years this way and have had very few losses of flora or fauna. Of course YMMV and the usual lawyer talk of not being responsible but you can ask any of the pet shops here in Savannah about my plants and tanks.

Thanks,Jim