I like Gene Helfman's approach. In his fabulous book FISH CONSERVATION he writes: "...in my home state of Georgia, a recreational fishing license gives me the right to use a small seine to capture, keep, and transport live bait fishes as long as they are not a game or state-listed species. I cannot, however, keep native fishes in the home aquarium as pets. As a consequence, I maintain a 200-liter glass bait bucket in my livingroom stocked with local, common minnows. I just don't get out to fish with them very often."

Chris Scharpf
Baltimore

Thats great!

HAHAHAHA!

Perfect!
Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer. Pass a stupid law...

THis is promoting illegal behavior - all involved should be taken out back and shot, and then banned from the forum for life

THis is promoting illegal behavior - all involved should be taken out back and shot, and then banned from the forum for life

When Gene Helfman joins the forum Martin, you should feel free to report this topic

Then he might report me for my nefarious "bait bucket" activities, so I would feel obliged to report someone else, and then they would do the same and... you see, I just can't have it! Then I would have to go back to forging permits.

Northeast OH and NW PA- Tom and Ed, I think that is a great idea but I fear the VHS issue would preclude any collection and transport. I would check your local game laws regarding capturing and transporting fish within the Great Lakes watershed. Here in NY, they have banned all movement of live fish in the entire state. In addition, the USDA-APHIS order lists a handful of cyprinids from the Great Lakes that are illegal to transport across state lines. I think NANFA would have to take these issues into account when planning convention locations. Unlike NY, some of great lakes states have only placed restirctions on capture/transport within the great lakes watershed.

Northeast OH and NW PA- Tom and Ed, I think that is a great idea but I fear the VHS issue would preclude any collection and transport. I would check your local game laws regarding capturing and transporting fish within the Great Lakes watershed. Here in NY, they have banned all movement of live fish in the entire state. In addition, the USDA-APHIS order lists a handful of cyprinids from the Great Lakes that are illegal to transport across state lines. I think NANFA would have to take these issues into account when planning convention locations. Unlike NY, some of great lakes states have only placed restirctions on capture/transport within the great lakes watershed.

That's a real good point, Scott. I hadn't thought about that. The Pennsylvania portion I imagine would include primarily three target watersheds: French Creek, Shenango River, and Lake Erie. Most people would probably want French Creek. French Creek drains to the Ohio River via the Allegheny River. The Shenango River drains to the Ohio River via the Beaver River. So only the Lake Erie drainage is actually part of the VHS-susceptible Great Lakes drainage. The other drainages are not susceptible.

Here's the latest order:
http://www.pabulleti...37-41/1864.html

It doesn't seem to cover our activities. It only seems to cover "the Department-registered artificial propagators or the Department-registered dealers from those Pennsylvania Counties that are--in whole or in part--within the Lake Erie or Lake Ontario Watersheds." I don't know what to make of that.

That's a real good point, Scott. I hadn't thought about that. The Pennsylvania portion I imagine would include primarily three target watersheds: French Creek, Shenango River, and Lake Erie. Most people would probably want French Creek. French Creek drains to the Ohio River via the Allegheny River. The Shenango River drains to the Ohio River via the Beaver River. So only the Lake Erie drainage is actually part of the VHS-susceptible Great Lakes drainage. The other drainages are not susceptible.

Here's the latest order:
http://www.pabulleti...37-41/1864.html

It doesn't seem to cover our activities. It only seems to cover "the Department-registered artificial propagators or the Department-registered dealers from those Pennsylvania Counties that are--in whole or in part--within the Lake Erie or Lake Ontario Watersheds." I don't know what to make of that.

Matthew Smith, could chime in on this, he works for DNR here in Ohio.

I volunteered for the Western Pennsylvania Conservancy for 3 months in 2004 on French Creek. Did mussel, invertebrate, and fish surveys.

At that time, many interesting fish from French Creek were state listed.
<edit> I don't know if this is an issue with eastern PA scientists not working enough in western PA.
{I take this back. Tried to remove this comment but other have already responded} <edit>
I saw plenty of these rare fish at multiple sites. I heard at NANFA 2007 that the laws might be updated.

found today
http://www.pacode.co.../chap75toc.html
28 fish listed as endangered
15 listed as protected, and "possessing" is prohibited.

There are nice populations of them there...and ONLY in that region for the entire state. I can't imagine PA downgrading species like bluebreast spotted tippies, etc. and even if they did were back in the realm of ethics and proper NANFA conduct. French Creek is very isolated and very special. It is the exception not the status quo as far as those species go.

Hi Phillip,

Glad to hear you volunteered your time for a good cause, but no, it's not an issue. There's some fine and dedicated biologists in PA (and not just in the eastern half) that have spent a heck of a lot more than 3 mos working in the system on whose judgements listing is based. I've had the pleasure of working with a few of them. Many of the interesting fish in French Creek/Allegheny River are listed because while they can be seasonally abundant they're localized in PA and/or declining across the rest of their ranges. Don't diss the biologists because you can't keep these things.

French Creek is special only in that much of the rest of the upper Ohio River system (which USED to have the same level of diversity) has been trashed out. The good news is with the lower Monongahela recovering from years of abuse, many cool critters are recolonizing that system. Will we ever see longhead darters in the Youghiogheny River (the type locality, where Cope first collected them in the 1860s - along with Ammocrypta!) again? Maybe it's just a matter of time...

Dave

Yes Dave basically was getting at my point but with style.

I heard through the grape vine of channel darters showing up in the Yough recently...and on top of the fish Cope described there in the late 1800's Ortmann found archeological evidence of 22 species of mussels from the Yough and Casselman.

Good points, guys. The fact that there are a number of protected species in French Creek does not mean it's a bad place to go, just because you can't take all of the fish. There are lots of fish that you can take there, too. And the protected ones - look at them, photograph them, enjoy them, and put them back. I realize that people want to go home with fish, but seeing the rare ones that you can't keep is also quite a joy. Promoting conservation is one of our goals. To observe what we are conserving gives us more of an appreciation for conservation. And we can teach by example, by putting the protected species back.

Good points, guys. The fact that there are a number of protected species in French Creek does not mean it's a bad place to go, just because you can't take all of the fish. There are lots of fish that you can take there, too. And the protected ones - look at them, photograph them, enjoy them, and put them back. I realize that people want to go home with fish, but seeing the rare ones that you can't keep is also quite a joy. Promoting conservation is one of our goals. To observe what we are conserving gives us more of an appreciation for conservation. And we can teach by example, by putting the protected species back.

I couldn't have said it any better. This is exactly what I was thinking.

Tom

Yes, that was stupid to say (eastern PA scientists). The fact is that I don't really know.

I checked back today because I was going to edit my post.