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Fishes that are Endangered, Threatened, SOC


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#21 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 12:38 PM

I agree, this is a great idea.

One thing to note. As far as photo rights go, just "giving credit" is not enough. If you use someone else's photograph you must have permission to use it. Just because someone posts their intellectual property on the internet does NOT make it "Fair Use".


Quite true. I have though of that, too. In most cases, the photos (and all the distribution maps) are from www.natureserve.org. I will contact them and ask if I can use them. Since it is to forward the same cause, I imagine they would not have a problem.

#22 Guest_andyavram_*

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 08:57 AM

Irate, after you keep the endangered fishes and get caught you will get off easy. I mean with that seeing eye dog the judge has he won't be able to ID your fish. It will be a typical case of american blind justice.

BTW, I like the idea of a list of off limit species. I try and read ODNRs every once in awhile before going out looking for anything just to know what I could be getting into and keep refreshed.

Now go have another thanksgiving dinner that can't be beat.

Andy

#23 Guest_tglassburner_*

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 09:04 AM

BTW, I like the idea of a list of off limit species. I try and read ODNRs every once in awhile before going out looking for anything just to know what I could be getting into and keep refreshed.



Andy, that is exactly why I made that list. I can keep it with me in my truck when I'm collecting and make sure I don't collect AND keep something I shouldn't.
If I netted something on the list I could snap a photo and release it.

#24 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 06:00 PM

I

Now go have another thanksgiving dinner that can't be beat.

Andy


Waffle House again. I don't think Arlo had that in mind.

#25 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 08:14 PM

If I netted something on the list I could snap a photo and release it.


Tom, I applaud you for pointing out that people should make and know these lists, and put them here for others to see. A great message and handy resource While incidental observations of T & E species are often welcomed and can even be unavoidable (unless you just don't sample an area because of high probability) encounters in some streams, it also moves towards the realm of possession and harrassment. Specifically targeting an area because of a T & E species or high diversity of T & E's is a applicable situation. Think about it, you catch a fish in a net, you take it out of water, you put it in a box, you flash light at it...it's not much or even not at all different than catching a T & E mammal in a trap when you knew you had a high probability of catching one and snapping a few photo's. Is it likely that someone will roll up on the stream you're in and go "you're not trying to find _______ are you?" or "you're throwing all the ________ back and keeping the minnows, right?", no probably not, but some powers that be on multiple levels aren't exactly keen on what I discussed. 'Tis better to error on the side of caution and be informed, but just put it back in the water and save the mental picture. I think that would be a better general message rather than for everyone to take pictures (i.e. the exception).

#26 Guest_tglassburner_*

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 08:16 PM

Waffle House again. I don't think Arlo had that in mind.

Waffle House? WWAD? I'll bet he loves the Waffle House.

#27 Guest_tglassburner_*

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 08:19 PM

Tom, I applaud you for pointing out that people should make and know these lists, and put them here for others to see. A great message and handy resource While incidental observations of T & E species are often welcomed and can even be unavoidable (unless you just don't sample an area because of high probability) encounters in some streams, it also moves towards the realm of possession and harrassment. Specifically targeting an area because of a T & E species or high diversity of T & E's is a applicable situation. Think about it, you catch a fish in a net, you take it out of water, you put it in a box, you flash light at it...it's not much or even not at all different than catching a T & E mammal in a trap when you knew you had a high probability of catching one and snapping a few photo's. Is it likely that someone will roll up on the stream you're in and go "you're not trying to find _______ are you?" or "you're throwing all the ________ back and keeping the minnows, right?", no probably not, but some powers that be on multiple levels aren't exactly keen on what I discussed. 'Tis better to error on the side of caution and be informed, but just put it back in the water and save the mental picture. I think that would be a better general message rather than for everyone to take pictures (i.e. the exception).

I would never specifically target any T&E species, If I happened on any I would ID, Photo, Release and probably notify someone like Matthew Smith, and let him know what I found and where.

#28 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 10:32 PM

I never said YOU would intentionally do anything. In fact everything beyond the first two sentances, where I thanked you, was directed at the entire forum community. Since you did respond, you didn't quite seem to get my point that people of higher authority might not exactly be okay with a citizen taking photo's of incidentally caught T & E species because in their eyes is undue stress/harrasment. I've heard it twice in the past, from two different regional offices including your own. I'm throwing it out there for everyone to know so that situation never happens to them not to wield some threatening power from above.

#29 Guest_tglassburner_*

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 10:45 PM

I never said YOU would intentionally do anything. In fact everything beyond the first two sentances, where I thanked you, was directed at the entire forum community. Since you did respond, you didn't quite seem to get my point that people of higher authority might not exactly be okay with a citizen taking photo's of incidentally caught T & E species because in their eyes is undue stress/harrasment. I've heard it twice in the past, from two different regional offices including your own. I'm throwing it out there for everyone to know so that situation never happens to them not to wield some threatening power from above.

I can believe it thanks

#30 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 11:31 PM

I like this idea, and I think part of the intent was to keep it simple...so in that vein, here is the entire list of Michigan Endangered, threatened, and presumed extirpated.

The following species of fishes are included on the state
list of endangered species:
(a) Clinostomus elongatus (Kirtland) Redside dace
(b) Erimyzon oblongus (Mitchill) Creek chubsucker
© Notropis photogenis (Cope) Silver shiner
(d) Noturus stigmosus Taylor Northern madtom
(e) Opsopoeodus emiliae Hay Pugnose minnow
(f) Percina shumardi (Girard) River darter
(g) Percina copelandi (Jordan) Channel darter
(h) Phoxinus erythrogaster (Rafinesque) Southern redbelly dace
The following species of fishes are included on the state list of
threatened species:
(a) Acipenser fulvescens Rafinesque Lake sturgeon
(b) Ammocrypta pellucida (Putnam) Eastern sand darter
© Coregonus artedii Lesueur Cisco or lake herring
(d) Coregonus zenithicus (Jordan and Evermann) Shortjaw cisco
(e) Hiodon tergisus Lesueur Mooneye
(f) Moxostoma carinatum (Cope) River redhorse
(g) Stizostedion canadense (Smith) Sauger
The following species of fishes are thought to be extirpated in
Michigan, but, if rediscovered, will automatically be listed as threatened:
(a) Coregonus johannae (Wagner) Deepwater cisco
(b) Coregonus nigripinnis (Gill) Blackfin cisco
© Coregonus reighardi (Koelz) Shortnose cisco
(d) Notropis amblops (Rafinesque) Bigeye chub
(e) Notropis chalybaeus (Cope) Ironcolor shiner
(f) Notropis texanus (Girard) Weed shiner
(g) Polyodon spathula (Walbaum) Paddlefish
(h) Stizostedion vitreum glaucum (Hubbs) Bluepike
(i) Thymallus arcticus (Richardson) Arctic grayling

#31 Guest_tglassburner_*

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 01:04 PM

I like this idea, and I think part of the intent was to keep it simple...so in that vein, here is the entire list of Michigan Endangered, threatened, and presumed extirpated.


Thank you for staying on topic.

#32 Guest_deepsky_*

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 06:08 PM

Missouri
68 fish as of January 2007
the list can be found here on pages 35 and 36
http://www.mdc.mo.go...d/checklist.pdf
for better (a little bit?) formatting see the attachment

SCIENTIFIC NAME COMMON NAME SRANK GRANK STATE STATUS FEDERAL STATUS

Acipenser fulvescens Lake Sturgeon S1 G3G4 E
Alosa alabamae Alabama Shad S2 G3
Amblyopsis rosae Ozark Cavefish S2 G3 E T
Ameiurus nebulosus Brown Bullhead S3? G5
Ammocrypta clara Western Sand Darter S2S3 G3
Carpiodes velifer Highfin Carpsucker S2 G4G5
Centrarchus macropterus Flier S3 G5
Cottus sp. 8 Grotto Sculpin S2 G1Q C
Crystallaria asprella Crystal Darter S1 G3 E
Cycleptus elongatus Blue Sucker S3 G3G4
Cyprinella camura Bluntface Shiner S2S3 G5
Erimyzon sucetta Lake Chubsucker S2 G5
Etheostoma cragini Arkansas Darter S3S4 G3 C
Etheostoma euzonum erizonum Current River Saddled Darter S3 G3G4T3T4
Etheostoma euzonum euzonum Arkansas Saddled Darter S2 G3G4T3T4
Etheostoma fusiforme Swamp Darter S1 G5 E
Etheostoma histrio Harlequin Darter S2 G5 E
Etheostoma microperca Least Darter S2 G5
Etheostoma nianguae Niangua Darter S2 G2 E T
Etheostoma parvipinne Goldstripe Darter S1 G4G5 E
Etheostoma vivax Scaly Sand Darter S3 G5
Etheostoma whipplei Redfin Darter S1 G4 E
Forbesichthys agassizi Spring Cavefish S1 G4G5 E
Fundulus chrysotus Golden Topminnow S1 G5
Fundulus dispar Starhead Topminnow S2 G4
Fundulus sciadicus Plains Topminnow S3 G4
Fundulus zebrinus Plains Killifish S2 G5
Hiodon tergisus Mooneye S3 G5

SCIENTIFIC NAME COMMON NAME SRANK GRANK STATE STATUS FEDERAL STATUS

Hybognathus argyritis Western Silvery Minnow S2 G4
Hybognathus hankinsoni Brassy Minnow S3 G5
Hybognathus hayi Cypress Minnow S1 G5 E
Hybognathus nuchalis Mississippi Silvery Minnow S3S4 G5
Hybognathus placitus Plains Minnow S2 G4
Ichthyomyzon gagei Southern Brook Lamprey S2S3 G5
Lampetra appendix American Brook Lamprey S2 G4
Lepisosteus spatula Alligator Gar SU G3G4
Lepomis marginatus Dollar Sunfish SU G5
Lepomis symmetricus Bantam Sunfish S2 G5
Macrhybopsis gelida Sturgeon Chub S3 G3
Macrhybopsis meeki Sicklefin Chub S3 G3
Macrhybopsis storeriana Silver Chub S3 G5
Mugil cephalus Striped Mullet SA G5
Notropis amnis Pallid Shiner SX G4
Notropis buchanani Ghost Shiner S2 G5
Notropis chalybaeus Ironcolor Shiner S1 G4
Notropis heterolepis Blacknose Shiner S2 G4
Notropis maculatus Taillight Shiner S1 G5 E
Notropis ozarcanus Ozark Shiner S2 G3
Notropis sabinae Sabine Shiner S1 G4 E
Notropis texanus Weed Shiner S3 G5
Notropis topeka Topeka Shiner S1 G3 E E
Noturus eleutherus Mountain Madtom S1S2 G4 E
Noturus flavater Checkered Madtom S3S4 G3G4
Noturus placidus Neosho Madtom S2 G2 E T
Opsopoeodus emiliae Pugnose Minnow S4 G5
Percina copelandi Channel Darter S3 G4
Percina cymatotaenia Bluestripe Darter S2 G2
Percina nasuta Longnose Darter S1 G3 E
Percina shumardi River Darter S3 G5
Percina uranidea Stargazing Darter S2 G3
Percopsis omiscomaycus Trout-perch S1? G5
Pimephales tenellus parviceps Eastern Slim Minnow S2S3 G4T2T3
Pimephales tenellus tenellus Western Slim Minnow S3 G4T4
Platygobio gracilis Flathead Chub S1 G5 E
Polyodon spathula Paddlefish S3 G4
Scaphirhynchus albus Pallid Sturgeon S1 G1 E E
Typhlichthys subterraneus Southern Cavefish S2S3 G4
Umbra limi Central Mudminnow S1 G5 E
Total Fish Records: 68

Attached Files



#33 Guest_tglassburner_*

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 07:39 PM

Missouri
68 fish as of January 2007
the list can be found here on pages 35 and 36
http://www.mdc.mo.go...d/checklist.pdf

Thank you.

#34 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 08:08 AM

Great idea!
I have two suggestions based on my own experience and that of others I know personally.
First, it's not enough to know the names of protected species. You must be able to conclusively identify them under any circumstances, adult as well as juvenile.
This is where I once went wrong. I took home a bucket full of the ubiquitous "silvery shiners with black stripe". This pretty much covers all our native minnows plus juneniles of several larger fish. I failed to recognize until I got home that one of the silvery minnows was slightly different from the rest. In this case my mistake was caused by ignorence, doubly compounded. For one, I never imagined I'd encounter a rare minnow [bridle shiner in this case] so I never made an effort to be able to identify it. Even after becoming suspicious of what I had, it took great effort to get it positively identified. My second mistake brings me to my second point;
Know what protected species might be found in a given body of water. I had no clue bridles were in the little brook I was netting in. If I had, I'd have been more vigilent about what went into my bucket. Of course this is easier said then done, what with the secrecy so many state F&G departments have about protected species. Those of you working in the field might not realize how difficult it can be for us general public types to pry information out of F&G. Frankly, I have found it not worth asking because it seems just asking automatically marks you as a poacher in their eyes.
Problem is, by seining in waters that contain protected species, your actions can easily be interpreted as "harassment" of said protected species and as soon as one is in your net, you have "taken" said species. Trust me when I tell you there are MANY gungho F&G enforcement officers who will gladly write you a ticket. In MA they can also take your gear and revoke your fishing license.
I friend of mine learned this recently while photographing timber rattlesnakes in a heavily developed New England state. For the act of passively snapping photos without touching or alarming the snake, he recieved a written warning and was told next time would be arrested. Both he and I and my son are in the state data base because their Trail Cam set near the snake den photographed us walking in the woods.
Trust me, Big Brother IS out there and if you're a hobbyest, you're MAYBE one step above a poacher in their eyes.

#35 Guest_tglassburner_*

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 08:50 AM

Great idea!
I have two suggestions based on my own experience and that of others I know personally.
First, it's not enough to know the names of protected species. You must be able to conclusively identify them under any circumstances, adult as well as juvenile.

I agree, the list I posted, I checked against my main collecting HUC. I used my list to be able to learn specifically the fish on it. I have yet to see any of them on my list, but if I find anything that even looks similar, It's getting a free pass back into the water.

I appreciate your input.

#36 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 10:47 AM

...For the act of passively snapping photos without touching or alarming the snake, he recieved a written warning and was told next time would be arrested. Both he and I and my son are in the state data base because their Trail Cam set near the snake den photographed us walking in the woods...


There's an awful lot we can learn from the native herp-keeper community, mostly what NOT to do. Given the high levels of illegal take of many protected (and unprotected) herps, it's understandable that many states are hyper-vigilant regarding some species - bog and spotted turtles, indigo snakes, and several spp. of western rattlesnakes come to mind, as does the massive export of turtles from the US to Asia for food. Just hope that the Chinese don't find out that darters taste good!!

If we can demonstrate that we, both as a society and as individual native fish geeks, are responsible, collect ethically, and are willing to help educate others to do the same, I think we could make a convincing argument to State Fish & Game dept's across the country to adopt a consistent and rational policy on limited take of native fishes for private aquaria. This might open up options in many states where we've been legislated out of our "hobby." I've been working on a manuscript to send to a fisheries management journal regarding this, but it's easy to get discouraged when some knuckleheads on here shoot their mouth off and discuss illegal take... I hate to say it, but Todd's position sounds pretty good on those days.

#37 Guest_daveneely_*

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 11:21 AM

... it's easy to get discouraged when some knuckleheads on here shoot their mouth off and discuss illegal take...


Mike, that wasn't directed at you specifically (the "knucklehead" was in reference to an earlier thread). Everyone makes mistakes IDing fish, but that uncertainty is what makes taking more of an advocacy position in support of hobbyists so difficult.

I don't know what the solution is, but if we don't come up with some ideas I wouldn't be surprised if more states enact knee-jerk reactionary legislation to deal with perceived threats from disease or accidental take of T&E...

best,
Dave

#38 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 06:46 PM

We are all working on this Dave, believe me the administration is racking it's collective brains on this topic. "How do we educate newcomers without offending them?" I am not sure it can be done. We are working on new policies with hopes that we can quickly rectify these posts, and get to the bottom of the situation.

Everytime someone posts photos of fish that they have brought home without properly IDing first puts a blackmark on our organization. The positive is that these people are rarely Nanfa members, and we are trying our best to educate them. The downside is that Nanfa or not, the powers that be will simply lump all native enthusiasts together.

We are open to ideas, if anyone has some good ones, please feel free to PM me.

Also we will not tolerate illegal take. If you break laws, and discuss them openly on this forum, you will be dealt with.

#39 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 07:51 PM

If we can demonstrate that we, both as a society and as individual native fish geeks, are responsible, collect ethically, and are willing to help educate others to do the same, I think we could make a convincing argument to State Fish & Game dept's across the country to adopt a consistent and rational policy on limited take of native fishes for private aquaria. This might open up options in many states where we've been legislated out of our "hobby." I've been working on a manuscript to send to a fisheries management journal regarding this, but it's easy to get discouraged when some knuckleheads on here shoot their mouth off and discuss illegal take... I hate to say it, but Todd's position sounds pretty good on those days.


This is exactly what I have been saying needs to happen. We have to take a strong stand advocating our responsibility and ethics and the sepeartion between good apples and rotten ones. It's going to take direct communication, some butting heads internally and externally, and most importantly actions that are above a high standard. By direct communication I mean people going to the states, having a person in on the state level isn't enough. My office is 50 feet from the office of the fisheries permit writer and regulations department and it won't mean a hill of beans if I go over there by myself to push for non-gamefish collection and possession and we're asking them for help in the regulations to prevent it from happening again. Especially not when I had to spend two weeks surveying one of the better rivers in Maryland for a crayfish most likely introduced by a careless person and we are screaming about the loss of native crayfish because non-natives are hopping drainages. This thread is however a great example of the type of action that shows the standards we are setting and advocating. While I'd love to see bait collection seperated from naturalist activities and possession I don't see many states adding or ammending legislation of "us" when fisheries management legislation is currently so time consuming and combative. The bait collecting angle can't work forever, there is possession involved and while some states allow it or spell it out, others do neither or require permits (of varying degree of diffuculty to obtain).

#40 Guest_tglassburner_*

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 08:00 PM

This thread is however a great example of the type of action that shows the standards we are setting and advocating.

That is why I decided to post this!



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