I am defintitely not positive, but it sure looks like it.
Cyprinella help
Started by
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, Oct 16 2006 01:19 PM
39 replies to this topic
#22
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Posted 16 October 2006 - 04:01 PM
I am defintitely not positive, but it sure looks like it.
I understand. This is interesting no matter which way it goes.
#23
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Posted 16 October 2006 - 04:56 PM
def. not sure, just a thought, I can't ID very well from a pic.
#24
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Posted 16 October 2006 - 04:57 PM
It could just be an odd color pattern of a minnow that is common there.
#25
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Posted 16 October 2006 - 05:01 PM
It could just be an odd color pattern of a minnow that is common there.
Originally this was my thought as well. The only cyprinella that should exist are whipplei, spiloptera and lutrensis (steelcolored, spotfin and red). I feel comfortable saying it's none of those. Size alone rules our spiloptera & lutrensis. This fish was larger than any spotfin or red. I'll put some feelers out via e-mail.
#26
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Posted 16 October 2006 - 05:02 PM
The INHS list only 2 Cyprinella from this area. They are C. whipplei and C. spiloptera. If go the Notropis route they list 5) atherinoides, blennius, ludibundus, percobromus, and volucellus.
Bill F.
Bill F.
#27
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Posted 16 October 2006 - 05:14 PM
I threw in lutrensis since well, you know how they are, and found not far from this location on occasion.
#28
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Posted 16 October 2006 - 05:50 PM
I don't think its any of the listed Notropis. The interradial fin pigmentation makes my think its a cyprinella. Who knows
#29
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Posted 16 October 2006 - 05:51 PM
I'd bet a small fortune on the fact that it's a cyprinella.
#30
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Posted 16 October 2006 - 06:35 PM
Ignoring color for the moment and going strictly by body proportions, eye size/proportion/placement, fin placement/contour, mouth placement/orientation, they appear to be the same fish, to me. Can't tell about scale and ray counts, but those are variable, as is color. My vote is whipplei for both.
Venusta is a highly variable fish, but at least in MS it doesn't (to me) look like any other minnow.
Venusta is a highly variable fish, but at least in MS it doesn't (to me) look like any other minnow.
#31
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Posted 16 October 2006 - 07:03 PM
It would'nt suprise me if they were the same species, do you have close up the the anal and pectoral fins?
#32
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Posted 17 October 2006 - 05:35 AM
Uland,
Great detail in those pics! Nice!
Chip
Great detail in those pics! Nice!
Chip
#33
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Posted 17 October 2006 - 07:42 AM
Irate: It's certainly possible these fish are the same. The one thing that made me look twice was the caudal spot. We just don't have Cyprinella with a spot in these parts. I have no experience with Whipplei and sought the knowledge base here. Books don't refernce any sexual difference that might lead me to believe a caudal spot could exist on these fish.
Thanks for the kind words Chip. I love getting field photo records of fish.
Dredcon: Heres the best I can do on the anal fin.
Thanks for the kind words Chip. I love getting field photo records of fish.
Dredcon: Heres the best I can do on the anal fin.
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#34
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Posted 17 October 2006 - 03:50 PM
I feel it may be a Spotfin (C. spiloptera) after reading the description in American Aquarium Fishes by Robert J. Goldstein.
I am quoting from the book "C. spiloptera has blue iridescence on the back and flank, and a diffuse horizontal band that terminates in a large basicaudal spot. It has eight anal fin rays and grows to 4 inches on average." Maybe this fish has read the book and the others haven't.
Bill Flowers
I am quoting from the book "C. spiloptera has blue iridescence on the back and flank, and a diffuse horizontal band that terminates in a large basicaudal spot. It has eight anal fin rays and grows to 4 inches on average." Maybe this fish has read the book and the others haven't.
Bill Flowers
#35
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Posted 17 October 2006 - 06:10 PM
With minnows, I don't go by color so much as the characteristics I mentioned above. I don't measure 'em, I just eyeball 'em. This is why I often say that such and such minnow doesn't look like the ones I get in MS.
With darters, I am just lost unless they are colored up.
With darters, I am just lost unless they are colored up.
#36
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Posted 12 November 2006 - 11:51 PM
I wound through this thread to see if you guys got to my conclusion, as this is the first time I've seen GREAT pictures of these extremely similar sympatric species.
The first fish looks like whippeli to me, with 10 anal rays. The second looks like spiloptera, with 8 anal rays. I rely heavily on anal ray counts with these two species. When I'm in river segments that could host whippeli, I wait until I get a great male that just has "that look" and then do the count until I find one with the 10-11 rays, as I'm sure the stress of counting eventually kills them.
Still, with them together, you can see how the webbing in the dorsal is much more colored in with whippeli than spiloptera. But that's really never a safe bet to go by with a single fish in hand and no ray count
Really nice work with the camera!
Todd
The Muddy Maumee Madness, Toledo, OH
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The first fish looks like whippeli to me, with 10 anal rays. The second looks like spiloptera, with 8 anal rays. I rely heavily on anal ray counts with these two species. When I'm in river segments that could host whippeli, I wait until I get a great male that just has "that look" and then do the count until I find one with the 10-11 rays, as I'm sure the stress of counting eventually kills them.
Still, with them together, you can see how the webbing in the dorsal is much more colored in with whippeli than spiloptera. But that's really never a safe bet to go by with a single fish in hand and no ray count
Really nice work with the camera!
Todd
The Muddy Maumee Madness, Toledo, OH
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
http://www.farmertodd.com
#37
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Posted 13 November 2006 - 11:43 AM
Thanks Farmertodd,
I tend to agree that spotfin is the most logical choice. This would not only be that largest spotfin I've ever seen but also the only one with a caudal spot. In fairness to the preceding statement, this location is about 100 miles (as a crow flies) from my usual home waters and a good 800 river miles from where I typically sample. Thanks for taking the time to review and sharing your thoughts. Maybe I'll get a chance to poke around this location next spring.
I tend to agree that spotfin is the most logical choice. This would not only be that largest spotfin I've ever seen but also the only one with a caudal spot. In fairness to the preceding statement, this location is about 100 miles (as a crow flies) from my usual home waters and a good 800 river miles from where I typically sample. Thanks for taking the time to review and sharing your thoughts. Maybe I'll get a chance to poke around this location next spring.
#38
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Posted 13 November 2006 - 08:40 PM
I realize what was fussin' you, after some more thought today. Watch them in the future... Spiloptera will have a sort of - line, sometimes the triangle you see, right at the caudal peduncle. It's very unpronounced, but will be present. You just got a doozy sized one that somehow made it through summer spawning season in high fitness, and it was pronounced as this fish was in spawning condition, except without the yellow hues and white tips to distract you
In the case of venusta... It looks like someone was doing an art deco installation on the tail end of a Cyprinella minnow. It's incredibly distinct. I recently lost my type specimen and didn't end up ever photographing it. I should be ashamed of myself, because I had it for 2 years. We're going back to 'bammy this Jan though, and I'll definately return with a couple to be sure to photograph. They're a distinctive fish, just not as cool as the Alabama or tricolor shiners they co-occur with. Finding one in Indiana would be absolutely incredible.
And just fwiw... Another species that would look similar in the watershed you were working is the Mississippi silvery minnow, Hybognathus nuchalis. I would expect to find them in Indian Creek, if you hadn't identified them already. High quality tribs of the mainstem Wabash are apparently loaded with them. This was an afterthought today.
Bill Flowers, this was the minnow that "just didn't look right" that we caught in that feeder stream we walked up at Delphi. They look like a Pimephales and a Cyprinella got their business on. Which... I guess I need to photograph that one too
Todd
In the case of venusta... It looks like someone was doing an art deco installation on the tail end of a Cyprinella minnow. It's incredibly distinct. I recently lost my type specimen and didn't end up ever photographing it. I should be ashamed of myself, because I had it for 2 years. We're going back to 'bammy this Jan though, and I'll definately return with a couple to be sure to photograph. They're a distinctive fish, just not as cool as the Alabama or tricolor shiners they co-occur with. Finding one in Indiana would be absolutely incredible.
And just fwiw... Another species that would look similar in the watershed you were working is the Mississippi silvery minnow, Hybognathus nuchalis. I would expect to find them in Indian Creek, if you hadn't identified them already. High quality tribs of the mainstem Wabash are apparently loaded with them. This was an afterthought today.
Bill Flowers, this was the minnow that "just didn't look right" that we caught in that feeder stream we walked up at Delphi. They look like a Pimephales and a Cyprinella got their business on. Which... I guess I need to photograph that one too
Todd
#39
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Posted 04 December 2006 - 12:30 AM
These are definitely both cyprinella. Maybe one spiloptera and one whipplei. I have seen some very large spiloptera in Ohio.
#40
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Posted 04 December 2006 - 01:14 AM
Looks kinda lile there maybe interadial webbing before the first fin ray in the 2nd fish, maybe the fin is damaged.
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