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Killifish from St Johns River FL


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#21 Guest_Michelle_*

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 08:44 AM

Doug - It would be my pleasure to help out the scientific community with the non native fish. Since I don't know for sure what it is all I can do is give them a location and picture and let them sort it out. I hope that this works for them for I am a couple of hours away from Gainesville.

I understand that some of my killies are marsh killies. I can't find any good information or photos of them on line. Does anyone know more about these fish or have some pictures?

I thought that I would submit a photo to fishbase since they don't have one.

Unless I am mistaken the gray spangled and the orange spangled only mate with females of the same type. The gray stick with the gray females and the orange stick with the tiger striped black spot on dorsal fin females.

Are they both marsh killi fish but with different coloring patterns grays and oranges? The orange ones are not able to fade and deepen their hue to the same extent that the gray can. I was not able to get a good pic of the gray ones. As soon as I put the light on for photos and moved some plants the gray killis faded to light gray which makes it hard to see the normally bright light blue fringing on their fins and tails. The orange ones do not have any kind of fringe just the black spot on the female dorsal fin.

From the information I've been given so far maybe these are just slight variations of the same fish.

Yes it is amazing what I brought to my man-made pond. Since every visible fish that I caught were all gambusias, I am thinking that either the water I put in my pale had fry so small I missed them or more likely I had hitchhickers in the roots of the water lettuce. I used a small fine meshed slow net good only for catching fish that travel at gambusia speed. I have a hard time catching the other types of fish in my own pond let alone the river. I have to use a larger mesh big net and I have to trick them. They will follow me as I walk around my pond. They are hoping for treats. That is when I throw a net over them. Mostly I miss. It took me months to catch these fish out of my pond. I don't want to hurt any of them or disturb plants.
I've found some crayfish that must have been eggs in the roots of plants or so small that they could hitchhike in the plants. I worry now that I might have some bass or something like that in there but so far the largest fish that I have seen are the green sun fish.

Each time I caught a new fish out of my pond I put it in a quarantine tank for 3 weeks. This worked because I haven't had sick fish. Which again makes me worry as to why the very gravid molly died, and the two gravid killies died. These death were spread months apart and happened in my main tank.




The second last px has a couple of juvenile lake chubsuckers, the black leading edge on the dorsals is a tell-tale.

I'm not sure if your bigger killies are gulfs or mummichogs, the St Johns is right at the crossover. I'm now leaning towards mummichog because they don't quite look right for the gulf killies I see and know.

Pretty darn good haul for a few swipes through the vegetation !!!

The platy/swordtail/whatever-it-is-it-ain't-native fish .... you should file a online report on that with the USGS's NonIndigenous Aquatic Species section. ... http://nas.er.usgs.g...htingReport.asp . They list Xiphophorus maculatus as being "locally established" in the St Johns drainage, the online info doesn't specify where in the St Johns (see http://nas.er.usgs.g...p?speciesID=872 and check out the map too) ... and occurrences of various Xiphophorus crosses that may or may not be established. You could help confirm the distribution and/or persistence of this non-native. Esp. if you have pictures and specimens.

(I reported brown hoplo cats (Hoplosternum littorale) from a new location a few years ago ... after a Fla NANFA (SKS) field trip actually ... and they seemed a bit surprised I actually had them in a tank at the house. They said they'd like to see them, and since by freaky chance their national center/lab is in Gainesville FL where I work, that was pretty easy. And when they had live ones 12 inches from their eyes they were confident in the ID! And updated the range maps. They'll use info from amateurs if it's credible. I had a nice visit with Dr. Nico and learned a lot about brown hoplos And got a reward, in the form of a little warm glow that little ole me was helping fishological science in a tiny way.)

d.d.



#22 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 10:03 AM

Doug, which fish in the pictures do you think are grandis or heteroclitus? All of the Fundulus seem to be confluentus.

Can't find my Peterson's salt-water guide, which is a nuisance, so this without aid of a book. For a common fish, Google sure doesn't find much on F. confluentus. (Brackish fish = under-loved.)

Px #3 - fish has 12-14 thin vertical bars, and an ocellus at the rear base of the dorsal fin ===> F. confluentus, marsh killie, no question. Fins are clear, and the rays are very noticeable.The fish overall is light colored. (Light gray-to-blue-gray. And I suspect in the tank does not "color up" or "flash.")

Px #4 - fuzzy, but a close up of the rear of a confluentus, showing the ocellus and bars

Px #5, 6 + 7 - shows fish that are distinctly spotted on the rear halves. The fins are dark, with colored edges (yellow?), and the rays are not the main visual feature.

To me those are not confluentus, markings-wise they look pretty much like what I'm used to calling F. grandis, gulf killie. Your revised estimate down-graded the max size of the fish, but you still had some that measured in at 4". My impression is that confluentus top out at right around 3", I personally haven't seen any larger. But grandis gets to at least 6", and at that size is kinda shaped like a bratwurst with fins, whereas confluentus is a leaner torpedo fish. Your fish in the px aren't full-grown, but to my eye (or imagination) they seem a little chunkier than the fish that are surely confluentus.

Male grandis I've had in the past would really color-up and flash with remarkable speed. The band on the edge of the caudal fin gets very bright, and the whole face gets a "black mask." It's a "Wow, where did that fish come from" moment. You mentioned your fish coloring up quickly, which again seems characteristic of grandis in my (limited) experience.

So that's why I think you also have some F. grandis or its extremely close relative, heteroclitus.

But I could be wrong, happens all the time !

d.d.

Edited by Doug_Dame, 05 August 2008 - 10:05 AM.


#23 Guest_Michelle_*

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 11:07 AM

Doug- You are right that I only have small ones in the aquarium. The bigger ones are in the pond and too fast to catch. When I look at them from above their heads are wide and they are rather chunky. Females in the pond reach 4 1/2 inches but not much more. The males can almost strobe. The speed and intensity in which they can change colors amazes me. They will flash and display in my aquarium from time to time. I can watch a fish go from pale pale gray to dark slate grey in seconds. When their bodies are dark gray you can really see the light blue to white trim on the ends of the fin and tail. These are rather chunky fish. In the pond some look downright fat. My fish get's a black mask too. Sometimes he will forget to change a patch of color. Once I looked at his head and it has a large light patch on it. At first I thought he was sick but after a few minutes he changed the light patch to match the rest of his coloration.

Can't find my Peterson's salt-water guide, which is a nuisance, so this without aid of a book. For a common fish, Google sure doesn't find much on F. confluentus. (Brackish fish = under-loved.)

Px #3 - fish has 12-14 thin vertical bars, and an ocellus at the rear base of the dorsal fin ===> F. confluentus, marsh killie, no question. Fins are clear, and the rays are very noticeable.The fish overall is light colored. (Light gray-to-blue-gray. And I suspect in the tank does not "color up" or "flash.")

Px #4 - fuzzy, but a close up of the rear of a confluentus, showing the ocellus and bars

Px #5, 6 + 7 - shows fish that are distinctly spotted on the rear halves. The fins are dark, with colored edges (yellow?), and the rays are not the main visual feature.

To me those are not confluentus, markings-wise they look pretty much like what I'm used to calling F. grandis, gulf killie. Your revised estimate down-graded the max size of the fish, but you still had some that measured in at 4". My impression is that confluentus top out at right around 3", I personally haven't seen any larger. But grandis gets to at least 6", and at that size is kinda shaped like a bratwurst with fins, whereas confluentus is a leaner torpedo fish. Your fish in the px aren't full-grown, but to my eye (or imagination) they seem a little chunkier than the fish that are surely confluentus.

Male grandis I've had in the past would really color-up and flash with remarkable speed. The band on the edge of the caudal fin gets very bright, and the whole face gets a "black mask." It's a "Wow, where did that fish come from" moment. You mentioned your fish coloring up quickly, which again seems characteristic of grandis in my (limited) experience.

So that's why I think you also have some F. grandis or its extremely close relative, heteroclitus.

But I could be wrong, happens all the time !

d.d.



#24 Guest_dsmith73_*

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 01:37 PM

Doug, I think you could be onto something there. The fact that there are larger fish than the ones pictured lends credence to the ID of heteroclitus or grandis. The yellow banding at the edge of the anal fin is also indicative of the these and is not seen on confluentus. Apparently, I was too hasty with my initial ID. Good job.

#25 Guest_Michelle_*

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 10:30 AM

Which would be more likely to found in the St. Johns River where it meets Trout Creek 32092? Or how can I tell whether I have heteroclitus or grandis?

Doug, I think you could be onto something there. The fact that there are larger fish than the ones pictured lends credence to the ID of heteroclitus or grandis. The yellow banding at the edge of the anal fin is also indicative of the these and is not seen on confluentus. Apparently, I was too hasty with my initial ID. Good job.



#26 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 10:47 PM

Which would be more likely to found in the St. Johns River where it meets Trout Creek 32092? Or how can I tell whether I have heteroclitus or grandis?

What I generally do in this situation is say "Mr. or Mrs Fish, from now on your name shall be RALPH, and that's good enough."

But some people like more certainty in their world. (In which case I recommend the alternative, more definitive, pronouncement, "Mr. or Mrs Fish, FOR SURE your name is Ralph.")

Not too many people keep brackish water species (I did mention "under-loved" before, with cause), and historically they have not been the subject of much discussion in the NANFA forums. But if you can get an even clearer px, I suspect some of the more professional icthy-types could help.

Goldstein says (American Aquarium Fishes, Goldstein Harper & Edwards, 2000) ... paraphrased ... that
- F. heteroclitis / mummichog is 2-4", gray with thin, dark vertical lines on the flank of the female, the male is smaller but in nuptial color is deep dark green above, brilliant yellow below and with numerous vertical rows of silver spots and alternating light and dark bars. Most abundant killifish in low-salinity salt marshes over silt, mud sometimes sand, and is often associated with vegetation and Cyp. variegatus. (sheepshead pupfish/"minnow") . It is tolerant of temps down to near freezing.
- F. grandis / gulf killie is larger (usually about 5") and darker above with black cheeks in the male and a more upturned mouth. Grandis is not cold tolerant.
- the similar and even larger F. grandissimus replaces grandis on the Yucatan coast. All three species have silvery bars interspersed with dark vertical bars.
- now for range: heteroclitus/mummichog ranges from Newfoundland to the mouth of the St John River at Jacksonville FL. Grandis/gulf "replaces heteroclitus below Jacksonville" and goes around the Gulf.
- the book has px, but they are not clear enough to be definitive to me, these species just look a lot alike.

Given your location up the St Johns, it could be either. I lean towards grandis based on your descriptions, but as a Floridian I'm not sure I've really seen mummichogs, up close and in my hand.

BTW, for amateur NANFAns, the Goldstein book in my opinion is the 2nd or 3rd native fish book you should get. It has a lot of information you won't find anywhere else, esp about keeping and breeding the various kinds of native fish. Not the best ID book, but I don't think it was intended to be that. An enduring reference I use pretty regularly; if it's not on your bookshelf, it should be on your birthday/Christmas list. (#1 would be the Peterson's Field Guide (Page et al), #2 would be a toss-up between Goldstein and Fish of YourState/Region, if there is one.)

d.d.

#27 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 10:54 PM

Apparently, I was too hasty with my initial ID.

No, Dustin, you were the first to say confluentus and you nailed that. But there was (apparently) some other stuff too.

It takes an e-village of fishidiots being childlike, or something like that. :rolleyes:

d.d.

#28 Guest_Michelle_*

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 11:54 AM

Thanks Doug- I will purchase the Peterson Guide and see if I can find a freshwater and or brackish water fish ID book for Florida.

No, Dustin, you were the first to say confluentus and you nailed that. But there was (apparently) some other stuff too.

It takes an e-village of fishidiots being childlike, or something like that. :rolleyes:

d.d.



#29 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 07:26 PM

After seeing some over this weekend, grandis is a distinctly big, robust fish and not as colorful as either heteroclitus or confluentus. That's a relative description, of course.



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