Does anyone one have any knowledge or experience involving the neosho smallmouth (Micropterus dolomieu velox) ??
Neosho smallmouth ?
Started by
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, Sep 10 2008 05:21 PM
33 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 10 September 2008 - 06:37 PM
Experience as in? There is likely of readily googleable information since it is a game fish.
If I remeber correcntly there is a nice little paragraph or two in McClanes Field Guide to Freshwater Fishes
If I remeber correcntly there is a nice little paragraph or two in McClanes Field Guide to Freshwater Fishes
#3
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Posted 10 September 2008 - 08:47 PM
I find information out there but nothing to detailed... I can't even find a photo of a real Neosho bass..
Edited by basssmaster, 10 September 2008 - 08:48 PM.
#4
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Posted 15 September 2008 - 08:23 PM
Neosho smallmouth bass comprise dominant dark spots at the rear of the fishes shielding gill. Its jaw line slightly extends to the back and nearly touches the rear of his eye. You will find Neosho in Arkansas waters, Oklahoma waters, Missouri, etc. Check the Arkansas River to catch Neosho also.
#5
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Posted 07 October 2008 - 03:52 PM
Neosho smallmouth bass comprise dominant dark spots at the rear of the fishes shielding gill. Its jaw line slightly extends to the back and nearly touches the rear of his eye. You will find Neosho in Arkansas waters, Oklahoma waters, Missouri, etc. Check the Arkansas River to catch Neosho also.
Ya but most of those waters have been stocked with smallmouth from up north, I'm trying to find a place in southern MO that still has some true Neosho..
I would love it if someone could tell me an exact location, where the Neosho is still pure. more than likley it would have to be a small head water or creek where the northerns havent invaded, Yet...
Edited by basssmaster, 07 October 2008 - 03:54 PM.
#6
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Posted 07 October 2008 - 06:39 PM
The field guide I mentioned gave information about their range. I'm sure Fishes of Missouri also might say where they remain without influence by non-native strains of smallmouth.
#7
Guest_TomNear_*
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Posted 08 October 2008 - 09:32 AM
This is from a book chapter that has been in press for three years!
A similar situation exists for the Neosho Smallmouth Bass, Micropterus dolomieu velox Hubbs and Bailey. This subspecies was described based primarily on slight differences in counts of the second dorsal fin rays, pigmentation patterns, and dentition on the tongue (Hubbs and Bailey, 1940). The validity of M. d. velox was subsequently dismissed on the basis of slight morphological differences and clinal gradation into the nominal M. dolomieu (Bailey, 1956; Gilbert, 1998), a conclusion supported by more recent analyses of nuclear gene encoded allozymes and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequence data (Stark and Echelle, 1998; Kassler, et al., 2002).
A similar situation exists for the Neosho Smallmouth Bass, Micropterus dolomieu velox Hubbs and Bailey. This subspecies was described based primarily on slight differences in counts of the second dorsal fin rays, pigmentation patterns, and dentition on the tongue (Hubbs and Bailey, 1940). The validity of M. d. velox was subsequently dismissed on the basis of slight morphological differences and clinal gradation into the nominal M. dolomieu (Bailey, 1956; Gilbert, 1998), a conclusion supported by more recent analyses of nuclear gene encoded allozymes and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequence data (Stark and Echelle, 1998; Kassler, et al., 2002).
#8
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Posted 13 October 2008 - 03:17 PM
I still would like some known locations to find pure Neosho smallmouth?
Preferably in Missouri
Thanks
Preferably in Missouri
Thanks
#9
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Posted 09 November 2010 - 12:50 PM
Grand lake in Oklahoma still has pure strain. DCNR there refuses to stock northern strain because they would eliminate the native strain.
#10
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Posted 09 November 2010 - 08:11 PM
This is from a book chapter that has been in press for three years!
A similar situation exists for the Neosho Smallmouth Bass, Micropterus dolomieu velox Hubbs and Bailey. This subspecies was described based primarily on slight differences in counts of the second dorsal fin rays, pigmentation patterns, and dentition on the tongue (Hubbs and Bailey, 1940). The validity of M. d. velox was subsequently dismissed on the basis of slight morphological differences and clinal gradation into the nominal M. dolomieu (Bailey, 1956; Gilbert, 1998), a conclusion supported by more recent analyses of nuclear gene encoded allozymes and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequence data (Stark and Echelle, 1998; Kassler, et al., 2002).
What book was this excerpt from? I have William Pflieger fishes of Mo. and thier is no info for or against Neosho Smallmouths in there.
Edited by wargreen, 09 November 2010 - 08:16 PM.
#11
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Posted 01 February 2011 - 06:41 PM
Native Oklahoma smallmouth bass already exist in the Elk and Spring rivers that feed this 67-year-old reservoir.
http://sports.espn.g...ving_smallmouth
#12
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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:28 PM
Neosho smallmouth are common in most of the Oklahoma ozark streams. Specifically, the Illinois River is full of them. It's true that lake strain smb have been stocked in the watershed and there may be some mixing, but at least for now it appears that the lake strain like to stay in the lake and the native strain prefer the headwaters.
#13
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Posted 13 January 2013 - 09:45 AM
The Neosho strain of Smallmouth bass is alive and well in 5 counties in Missouri, 2 counties in Oklahoma and 1 in KS and 1 in AR. These are the only pure strain left that. Though relatively rare, in the whole scope, it is anything but in the free flowing waters of this area. Except in KS. They can be difficult to find there, but they are there.
The Neosho is a stream loving strain. Very, very rarely will one be caught in Grand Lake, which is also the dividing line of pure and contaminated strains of smallmouth due to OK's stocking program. Which I think has been suspended. There are very subtle differences in looking at the two strains. Mainly, the Neosho bottom lip will protrude ever so slightly beyond the top lip. Much like if it had a dip of snuff. That is really the quickest and most easily recognizable difference in the field.
If there is sill any interest in the Neosho strain, I'll do my best to answer your questions. Also if anyone is interested in seeing one in person, I can do that too.
The Neosho is a stream loving strain. Very, very rarely will one be caught in Grand Lake, which is also the dividing line of pure and contaminated strains of smallmouth due to OK's stocking program. Which I think has been suspended. There are very subtle differences in looking at the two strains. Mainly, the Neosho bottom lip will protrude ever so slightly beyond the top lip. Much like if it had a dip of snuff. That is really the quickest and most easily recognizable difference in the field.
If there is sill any interest in the Neosho strain, I'll do my best to answer your questions. Also if anyone is interested in seeing one in person, I can do that too.
#14
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Posted 13 January 2013 - 01:53 PM
What counties in Mo have the Neosho strain of smallmouth bass outside of Jasper and Newton counties?
#15
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Posted 13 January 2013 - 04:59 PM
Not sure about MO, but in Oklahoma we have 6 counties with Neosho strain smallmouth bass - Ottowa, Delaware, Adair, Cherokee, Mayes and Sequoyah. Southeast Oklahoma is also home to the genetically distinct Ouachita smallmouth bass.
SMB haven't been stocked in Grand Lake for some time.
SMB haven't been stocked in Grand Lake for some time.
#16
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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:06 PM
Lawrence, Barry, and McDonald. Those in Lawrence and Barry will only be select streams that flow westward into the Neosho drainage.What counties in Mo have the Neosho strain of smallmouth bass outside of Jasper and Newton counties?
Not sure about MO, but in Oklahoma we have 6 counties with Neosho strain smallmouth bass - Ottowa, Delaware, Adair, Cherokee, Mayes and Sequoyah. Southeast Oklahoma is also home to the genetically distinct Ouachita smallmouth bass. SMB haven't been stocked in Grand Lake for some time.
Smallmouth have never been stocked in Grand but they have been stocked in waters below Grand. That is the reason you are not guaranteed of catching a "pure" Neosho. Now if you have access to records of them being stocked in Grand, I would love to see it. And I am sure the biologist would too.
I haven't made down to souther OK yet, but the Ouachita is on my short list. I need to study up on them and the area some more. I know OK used to, I think they stopped all smallmouth stockings, but I think they used to stock smallmouth in just about waterway in the central and eastern part of the state. Since the Northern strain has a tendency to roam, I hope they haven't contaminated the gene pool.
#17
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Posted 14 January 2013 - 04:01 PM
It's true that pure strain Neosho smallmouth bass aren't guaranteed anywhere downstream of Pensacola Dam on the Grand River. However, I don't know of any evidence suggesting that the genetics have been compromised in OK streams. The only study I know of investigating gene introgression in Oklahoma streams was conducted in 1999 and found no evidence of mixing between the Tennessee Lake and native Neosho strain SMB in tributaries of either Tenkiller or Broken Bow Lakes.
They have however, documented a great deal of introgression within Tenkiller and Broken Bow reserviors, but at least as of 1999, the lake strain and native stream strain didn't seem to be mixing.
Hopefully, nothing has changed since, but unfortunately it may just be a matter of time. If you know of any more recent studies, please bring us up to date.
They have however, documented a great deal of introgression within Tenkiller and Broken Bow reserviors, but at least as of 1999, the lake strain and native stream strain didn't seem to be mixing.
Hopefully, nothing has changed since, but unfortunately it may just be a matter of time. If you know of any more recent studies, please bring us up to date.
Edited by bbrown, 14 January 2013 - 04:26 PM.
#18
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Posted 15 January 2013 - 07:43 AM
Sadly it is just a matter of time. Thankfully OWDC has recognized this tragic mistake and has taken the best corrective actions it can. That is stopping the stocking of non-native species. But the damage has been done and can not be reversed. We must remember, the studies for that report are at least 15 years old. Other studies have shown that the non-native strain will migrate up streams in the spring to spawn. The Tenn. strain was introduced in 1993, the study was done about 5 years later. Not nearly enough time to establish any gene damage. So as we stand now, we have had 20 years of possible gene contamination.
Was 1993 the only year that they were stocked??
Was 1993 the only year that they were stocked??
#19
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Posted 15 January 2013 - 09:57 AM
TN lake strain smb fry were stocked in Lake Tenkiller in 1990 (n=45,012) and 1991 (n=50,900). These are the only stockings I'm aware of and in 1999 an official moratorium was placed on further stockings.
#20
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Posted 15 January 2013 - 07:58 PM
Thanks, Lawrence county is not far from me, Ill have to call the MDC and see if they can tell me which streams support native smallmouth.
Edited by wargreen, 15 January 2013 - 08:01 PM.
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