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What's the Difference anyways?

Started by Guest_jblaylock_* , Oct 28 2008 07:06 AM

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#1 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 07:06 AM

Maybe this is a dumb question...but they say that no question is a dumb question so here goes.

While watching my fish last night I had a question come to mind. What is the differences between Minnows, Shiners, and Daces. What characteristic puts them into the different classification? Are there certain physical attributes that make them what they are?

#2 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 08:47 AM

You really really need to use that university library account of your significant other to borrow a copy of fishes of VA or TN, or systematics and historical ecology and NA freshwater fishes while you still can. Your answers await you those books.

#3 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 28 October 2008 - 08:54 AM

While Matt's answer is probably better for our long term education, I will jump to the other extreme and say that the words are relatively meaningless... dace is used to describe a large number of fish all over the world... shiner is a very generic term for what Irate would call LSF (little silvery fish... hence shiny fish or shiner)... minnow might have a technical meaning, but is used all too commonly to mean any small fish... add to the that term chub, which is applied to fish in several genus... we have now discovered the problem with common names.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#4 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 09:20 AM

Yes, Michael is right. The common names are splattered about in no order. White perch isn't a perch, chubs are all over the place, trout-perch is neither a trout or a perch, etc., etc., etc.

#5 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 10:14 AM

Well, I just wondered if there was a certain feature that makes a shiner a shiner, or a dace a dace. I was watching my dace in my tank last night when I noticed that it doesn't have the prominate scales that the shiners/minnows have. So, that's where I began to wonder if there is a trait that makes these fish be classified as a minnow, shiner, or dace.

#6 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 10:23 AM

We both were saying that there are certain features that break down the N.A. Cyprinidae species but for anyone to go into them will be incredibly lengthy and technical. So unless your looking for a lecture in fish taxonomy and systematics...

#7 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 10:39 AM

We both were saying that there are certain features that break down the N.A. Cyprinidae species but for anyone to go into them will be incredibly lengthy and technical. So unless your looking for a lecture in fish taxonomy and systematics...

I'm not looking for a lecture, or a smart comment...save them both.

It was a general question, and if there's no general answer that's fine. I understand that there are complexities concerning the taxomony of fish, and it I decided to study those, I will do so.

#8 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 11:00 AM

There seems to be a general grouping of small, moderately-compressed headwater-dwelling minnows as dace, strongly-compressed silvery minnows as shiners, and larger terete minnows as chubs, but this is not at all consistent, especially when you compare NA usages to European usages- the European dace is large enough to be a food fish. Some big terete minnows like fallfish and pikeminnows are sometimes called 'dace', while the tiny spring-dwelling Hemitremia is called a 'chub'.

#9 Guest_itsme_*

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 12:14 PM

All snideness aside, the shiners, dace and minnows do not have common characteristics that distinguish them from one another. Genera (plural of genus) do have common characteristics that join them under that name. For the uninitiated: The genus is the first word in the scientific or Latin name of an animal or plant. All animals, eg fishes, with the same genus name, eg Rhinichthys, do have similar characteristics. So, if you want to understand how the various minnows (dace, shiners, chubs, etc) (Family Cyprinidae) are alike, this is the simplest place to start. This is the bottom (well, if the tree is upside down!) of the phylogenetic tree. So that means that there are higher, more inclusive groupings of species with certain similarities as you go up the tree (the upside down tree, that is). Anyway, those are the categories you have to use if you want to have a meaningful discussion of the similar characteristics of fishes. Check this site out for a listing of common and scientific names of North American fishes organized by family: http://www.nanfa.org/checklist.shtml

#10 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 28 October 2008 - 12:36 PM

Well, I just wondered if there was a certain feature that makes a shiner a shiner, or a dace a dace. I was watching my dace in my tank last night when I noticed that it doesn't have the prominate scales that the shiners/minnows have. So, that's where I began to wonder if there is a trait that makes these fish be classified as a minnow, shiner, or dace.

Actually, although the words don't hold everywhere, I would agree with you... in North America, our dace all pretty much have smaller or finer scales (particularly if you just go with visuals)... for most of us that are not scientists, I would say that blacknose, blackside, longnose, southern redbellied, mountain redbellied, and similar are all called dace and all have smaller scales... of course, most of those fish that I normally think of as dace are either Phoxinus or Rhinicthys so that kind of goes back to what Mark was saying about characteristics in a specific genus.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#11 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 01:16 PM

I'm not looking for a lecture, or a smart comment...save them both.

It was a general question, and if there's no general answer that's fine. I understand that there are complexities concerning the taxomony of fish, and it I decided to study those, I will do so.

There is no correct general answer as has been said about their common names, but there was also no smart comment. I was using lecture in the literal term, as in hours of detailed explination concerning why they are seperated (which you've already hinted you have noticed a somewhat general difference, like scale size ), not standing on my high horse and scolding you. I've got better things to do since you just want answers to everything, but could care less about finding out the why's and how's orfinding the information out yourself. I, Michael, and now two other people have given you varying answers from as simple as yes and no.

For a further example "Dace" also includes Clinostumus spp. which I would say don't have fine scales, and off the top of my head I'd say chub is used in no less than 12 genera.

#12 Guest_CATfishTONY_*

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 04:49 PM

There is no correct general answer as has been said about their common names, but there was also no smart comment. I was using lecture in the literal term, as in hours of detailed explination concerning why they are seperated (which you've already hinted you have noticed a somewhat general difference, like scale size ), not standing on my high horse and scolding you. I've got better things to do since you just want answers to everything, but could care less about finding out the why's and how's orfinding the information out yourself. I, Michael, and now two other people have given you varying answers from as simple as yes and no.

For a further example "Dace" also includes Clinostumus spp. which I would say don't have fine scales, and off the top of my head I'd say chub is used in no less than 12 genera.

is this the reason we use latin for all things
and don't go by lets say (big eyed blue gill fish)
this human collective is Deep before i googled this site all bluegills
were sunfish some just had more color and the like chubs, minnows

#13 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:06 PM

is this the reason we use latin for all things
and don't go by lets say (big eyed blue gill fish)
this human collective is Deep before i googled this site all bluegills
were sunfish some just had more color and the like chubs, minnows

Sumus primi!

#14 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:36 PM

Personally I consider asking knowledgable people questions to be a legitimate form of "finding the information out yourself".
Of course lacking the high priced education, I'm not really qualified to speak. :roll:

However I did read a book once so I can tell you "minnow" is a term used to describe all members of the group known as Cyprinids which includes both "shiners" and "dace".
As for what is a shiner or dace, well, to paraphrase, I may not be able to define them, but I know them when I see them. :biggrin:

Sorry I can't help you with how or why they got those names. I ain't too bright. ](*,)

#15 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 06:10 PM

Personally I consider asking knowledgable people questions to be a legitimate form of "finding the information out yourself".

Mike I don't disagree with you at all. But outside of the simple yes, well maybe for most of them, but not really the real answer is something that is better explained by the literature I listed than someone taking a huge amount of time to go over the systematics of the largest family of fish on the continent. It would also be more appropriate to compress that information down for an AC article like "When is a minnow not a minnow and a dace not a dace?"

#16 Guest_CATfishTONY_*

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 09:15 PM

Maybe this is a dumb question...but they say that no question is a dumb question so here goes.

While watching my fish last night I had a question come to mind. What is the differences between Minnows, Shiners, and Daces. What characteristic puts them into the different classification? Are there certain physical attributes that make them what they are?

try this link.

http://data.gbif.org.....cies/13158035

tony

#17 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 06:59 AM

Mike I don't disagree with you at all. But outside of the simple yes, well maybe for most of them, but not really the real answer is something that is better explained by the literature I listed than someone taking a huge amount of time to go over the systematics of the largest family of fish on the continent. It would also be more appropriate to compress that information down for an AC article like "When is a minnow not a minnow and a dace not a dace?"

Matt, I understand that there really isn't a simple answer to the question. I'm not asking anyone to spend a huge amount of time on anything. I asked a simple question, and I think you're reading way way too deep into it. My first simple question was if there was any certain feature that makes a shiner a shiner, etc..., and I was looking for a simple answer, such as "Yes all daces have eyes on their tail" or "minnows swim backwards". However, if there isn't a simple answer to the question, that's fine, and we can leave it at that. But like Mike said, I asked the question here because there are so many people with so much knowledge on the subject that I thought this would be a great place to ask. If I can't come to the NANFA forum and ask a question like that...then whats the point of the forum.

I'm not trying to argue with you, cause frankly I'll lose due to the fact that I don't have the information....the reason I asked the question. I didn't realize this would cause an arguement.

#18 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 12:06 PM

If I can't come to the NANFA forum and ask a question like that...then whats the point of the forum.

I'm not trying to argue with you, cause frankly I'll lose due to the fact that I don't have the information....the reason I asked the question. I didn't realize this would cause an arguement.

Jblaylock, you question was fine, unfourtantly it does boil down to looking it up in the books. However, some members just get a little too serious and too nippy on this forum. Have you not noticed some of the core members not posting on here anymore? I know I have, this is why I really only post or reply in the ID Assistance and the Trip Reports sections (because there is still good and lighthearted fun in those sections), and also I do alot of private messaging when I have a more serious question. Take everything via the internet with a grain of salt, if people are really getting mad over the internet they need to step outside and take a breath of fresh air anyways. I have seen you and JohnO have been taking a lot of trips and sampling different creeks and rivers, you are moving in the right direction, this is how you really learn about fish anyways.

Thanks,

Blake

#19 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 03:13 PM

jblaylock,

It's a fine question but it's not simple at all.
I agree with Matt that a book is the only reasonable way to answer this question and satisfy the interest you'll have with differentiating other fishes as well.
I believe there was misunderstanding that Matt was being nippy but I think he meant lecture literally and wasn't trying to "smart" in any way.

Honestly, I could not answer this question without copying several pages and whole lot of exceptions and asterisks. If you were to ask differences between Phoxinus and Cyprinella (two minnow genus) the discussion here would be different.

#20 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 05:42 PM

Honestly, I could not answer this question without copying several pages and whole lot of exceptions and asterisks. If you were to ask differences between Phoxinus and Cyprinella (two minnow genus) the discussion here would be different.

It's easy -- Cyprinella are bigger than Phoxinus. But even within Cyprinella, some species are called "chubs" while most are "shiners". There's no well-defined rhyme and reason for different "category" names.