young lepomis care

Hey guys, I can use your help. This is the first time I've attempted to care for young Lepomis.

Background: A few weeks ago my Lepomis miniatus x punctatus spawned and I have roughly 150 fish in a 20 gallon. Many have grown to 1/4" and it's time I consider moving them but I'm not sure when to do it.
I happen to have a 150 gallon, well cycled tank with sponge filters ready to go but I have a few questions.


At what size/age should I even consider moving young fish?
I'm concerned the 150 is too big for the fry and I might have trouble feeding them in such a large tank.
Should I be worried about them finding food in such a large tank?

Try to aviod using a net when moving them, instead try to crowd them in a bucket.
Tank size should not be a problem.

What are the fry currently being fed?

Hey guys, I can use your help. This is the first time I've attempted to care for young Lepomis.

Background: A few weeks ago my Lepomis miniatus x punctatus spawned and I have roughly 150 fish in a 20 gallon. Many have grown to 1/4" and it's time I consider moving them but I'm not sure when to do it.
I happen to have a 150 gallon, well cycled tank with sponge filters ready to go but I have a few questions.


At what size/age should I even consider moving young fish?
I'm concerned the 150 is too big for the fry and I might have trouble feeding them in such a large tank.
Should I be worried about them finding food in such a large tank?

The best times to move young sunfishes is prior to swimmup and after metamorphosis. Age is not a good criterion to base developemtnal stage on as growth rates can vary considerably. If you can see spines od dorsal and anal fins thay will tolerate moving but if know scales present then best to move them in water with minimal contact with netting. A full stomach at time of handling also helps. Redspotted and blackspotted sunfishes metamophose at smaller sizes than many other Lepomis spp, as a result for a givdn length tougher in face of handling.

Thanks for your help centrarchid. If well cared for, at what approximate size should I expect to see dorsal and anal spines in your experience? I ask since I'll soon have to consider culling. If culling is necessary, I believe the sooner the better for the health of all.

bassmaster, the fish are still eating Hikari "first bites". Interestingly they began to eat the Hikari food immediately at swim up and some began to eat this stuff before swim up. The hikari food was back up to give me time to get brine shrimp hatched. The brine shrimp were not hatching in 24 hours (more like 40 hours) and the hatch rate was miserable. I was simply polluting the tank with the poorly hatched shrimp. After several bad hatches I gave up. I also tried "golden pearls" and found the fish rejected them at first but later accepted them. I did find that after feeding golden pearls a thick scum formed on the waters surface which made it difficult for fish to feed. This forced me to surface skim with daily water changes so I now use the Hikari almost exclusively but feed golden pearls very sparingly every other day.

Thanks for your help centrarchid. If well cared for, at what approximate size should I expect to see dorsal and anal spines in your experience? I ask since I'll soon have to consider culling. If culling is necessary, I believe the sooner the better for the health of all.

bassmaster, the fish are still eating Hikari "first bites". Interestingly they began to eat the Hikari food immediately at swim up and some began to eat this stuff before swim up. The hikari food was back up to give me time to get brine shrimp hatched. The brine shrimp were not hatching in 24 hours (more like 40 hours) and the hatch rate was miserable. I was simply polluting the tank with the poorly hatched shrimp. After several bad hatches I gave up. I also tried "golden pearls" and found the fish rejected them at first but later accepted them. I did find that after feeding golden pearls a thick scum formed on the waters surface which made it difficult for fish to feed. This forced me to surface skim with daily water changes so I now use the Hikari almost exclusively but feed golden pearls very sparingly every other day.

Uland,

Redspotted sunfish derived form Indiana and the the upper Mississippi Embayment stocks start showing the dorsal spines when total length is about 10 mm. I have not watched blackspotted so closely to now if early development is same but experiance says make no such assumptions. When total length approximates 15 mm they are very tolerant of handling. I recommend culling / grading immediately, targeting smaller slower fish for removal. Upon removal of subgrade animals, grade animals should fatten up and put on a spurt of growth even if kept in smaller tank.


Brineshrimp: Basssmaster works with me in my lab and could handle this if was not already too busy. Do not give up on brine shrimp yet. Were they in the proper temperature range for incubation? We move our hatchers about to keep them operating in the range of 76 to 82 F. Also, blasting them with light from either an incandescent or flourescent bulb is almost manditory for richer / heavier stocking of the hatchers. Make certain they are getting adequate aeration as well. This assumes you purchased a quality batch of cysts.


Use of any prepared (like Hikari) feeds exclusively can be a problem if started too soon. They will be consumed but fry may have difficulty extracting nutrients with their still simple digestive tracts. It is difficult to feed all fry adequately without over feeding tank which is someting we must deal with all the time with fry during transition from live prey to prepared diets, therefore custodial efforts will have to be high until transition complete or live feeds can be relied upon as a major source of nutrition.

therefore custodial efforts will have to be high until transition complete or live feeds can be relied upon as a major source of nutrition.

That right there is another really good reason to ruthlessly cull until you are down to a workable number that can be most efficiently, conveniently and cheaply fed. More efficient feeding helps with the tank maintenance, keeping mulm to a minimum. Snails help with uneaten food.
A well planted tank serves dual purpose as bio-filter and supplies a source of tiny critters the fry will hunt. I've been known to continually add clumps of freshly collected pond plants to keep the critter count high. Obviously, scan for dragonfly larvae etc.
It helps to have an open area for the addition of food so fry can be observed eating. Watch at feeding time and scrap the runts, skinny ones, slow feeders or continual hiders.

I'd be leery of a 150 early on. Unless you have some way to concentrate the fry and food together some how, you'll have to way overfeed to be sure they all get food. I'm a firm believer of big tank = good growth rate, but within reason. It's all about feeding efficiently.

Keep us informed how you're doing. I'm interested to see how the artificial diet works out for you.
Sounds like you have bad brine eggs. The ones I've got hatch very reliably - and I'm none to careful about temp or salinity. Earlier offer stands if you want some from here. Unfortunately, I don't have the package or remember the brand but I think they are San Francisco Bay.

Edited by mikez, 24 February 2009 - 10:33 PM.

I really appreciate the help here everyone.

I'm pretty persnickety about details of new things and I carefully monitored each failed batch of brine shrimp. I used tank water and tested salinity with a hydrometer prior to adding eggs. I did use intense lighting and temps were at 80 degrees (+/- 1 degree).

I think some of what has been written previously about fry care has managed to penetrate my thick skull and recall reading about the nutrient uptake. I've have been supplementing water changes with "Vitachem" as precaution.

I do have a way to isolate the fry inside the 150 and I recall it's about the 35 gallon vessel. I can at least split the batch if necessary.

Interestingly I've notice many fish are taking a sunfish form at this time and some are very long and slender. The primary difference seems to be the fish taking a sunfish body shape are aggressive eaters and always have full stomachs while the longer more slender fish indeed eat, but are rarely packed full of food. This might be caused by the powder food diet for all I know.

Interestingly I've notice many fish are taking a sunfish form at this time and some are very long and slender. The primary difference seems to be the fish taking a sunfish body shape are aggressive eaters and always have full stomachs while the longer more slender fish indeed eat, but are rarely packed full of food. This might be caused by the powder food diet for all I know.

This condition we often attribute to larvae consuming the brine shrimp cyst / egg shell causing either partial blockage or damage to gastric and intestinal tract.

Where did you acquire your brine shrimp from?

I had to drive out of state (but not terribly far) to buy them at a local fish store (LFS). I cannot remember the brand but they come in a vial as I've seen many times before.

I recommend next time you purchase the certified stuff in a can. May cost $35 + shipping but can last at least a year after opening. Another option would be to set up a cladoceran culture with one of the smaller species. Redspotted sunfish larvae can easily handle 1st and 2nd instar water fleas and after only a few days will be able to take larger lifestages.

I thought I'd give a quick update....the dry food seems to have worked very well to my surprise. Fish appear to be associating with structure suddenly. I think a couple of the larger fish might be eating siblings?
My second spawn hatched earlier this week and the fry are hopping about. I might move the first spawn out and try see how the second spawn does.

Yet another update but this time on the parent fish.
The big male began making many new nests yesterday and today was colored as if he had been or was about to be on the nest. I thought this was quite odd since I know the female had already spawned twice with the male. I then noticed one of the "males" had the odd nest coloration as well. Upon close inspection a fish I had always presumed to be a male (due to bright coloration) was in fact a female. The inferior, sneaker male appears somewhat successful in passing his genes along. The dominant male isn't all that happy about his attempts at success though.

Sorry about the awful photos but I was terribly unprepared. Bad photos can be better than no photos at all I guess?

I'll work on a write up for the BAP before long but thought I'd share the odd coloration with y'all today.


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Ok..one more update. I managed to get a few more shots including the amazingly quick, uninvited male trying to benefit from the frenzied atmosphere in the tank.

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Wow, Uland. Those fish are beautiful! Thanks for posting pics and sharing some of the sites that you get to see. What are you going to end up doing all of the young 'uns?

Hey Will, thanks for the kind words.
To update the fry...they are quite well despite my attempts to kill them! I've managed to suck them into my power filter on a few occasions and just last night I manged to suck most of them onto the floor in a water change mishap. Many of the fish that were rescued from the power filter survived but the floor incident last night was fatal. I still have quite a few left but if I wanted to keep a majority of sunfish spawn, I think I would have small numbers in many small tanks with a small sponge filter in each. I can say that I believe dry food is not at all out of the question when raising young sunfish but I don't discount the benefits of live food for fry.

Amazing! Those are some killer shots of very cool behavoir. The fish are spectacular as well. They remind me of some of the central american cichlids.

I must say, although I think of you as the master of the "field guide" style of photo, you really nailed those action shots.

BTW, I'm glad you decided to take my advice and cull ruthlessly. The ole spill 'em on floor trick works every time.

Just to remind everyone...I have no experience with this but I get the impression this group was on it's way to self population control without my help. Some fish simply are growing very quickly while others eat but don't seem to put on mass. I'm not certain of this but I'd swear the few largest sunfish are capable of eating siblings and might be doing just that. Am I crazy in thinking this?

Oh yeah...the siphoned water on the floor. Every night I come home and change 5 gallons from the 20 gallon tank. I usually just siphon from the HOB filter box so I don't take any fish and this is how I found failures in my sponge intake. I then treat another 5 gallon bucket and use the airline tube (3/16" diameter I believe) and slowly add the conditioned water into the tank. This seemed best since there are always slight temperature differences and the added turbulence didn't seen to help the very tiny fish. Anyhow...last night I managed to have the airline tube that was supposed to siphon the new water into the tank slip from the bucket and onto the floor. That naturally drained the fish tank. What a mess! I have made so many mistakes with the fry, I can't believe any made it this far.

Sunfish will readily consume siblings when the brood has a great variation in size.(leapers and lagers)That often occurs when larva do not have adeqaute feed during the early part of there life. Yours was probably caused by lack of live feed during larval state. Im shocked you got them this far. Post some pics of the fry..

I'll probably sacrifice one for a photo when I move them into the 150 but I'm a little nervous about moving them. The 150 is in the low 60's as far as temperature. I placed the second batch of young in floating containment (inside the 150) and they aren't doing well at all. I'm concerned the temperature is a major factor in their health. Should I be concerned about placing young fish in 62 degree water?

Not if your trying to achieve good growth/health. They can probably tolerate it short term but I would not recomend it. Around 80F would be alot better. Just use an aquarium heater that produces a stable temp. Fluctuation in temperature is hard on small fry. I would reduce the number to 50 or so and raise them in the 20gal.