It works for water solutions within the concentrations of interest for aquaria. At higher concentrations and in other solutes it breaks down, but not before all the fish are dead. 1 ml of water weighs 1 mg.
fish sickness: the flips?
Started by
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, Jun 30 2009 12:44 AM
41 replies to this topic
#22
Guest_Gene2308_*
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Posted 10 July 2009 - 10:26 AM
I remember seeing that in an old tropical fish hobbyist magazine somewhere. I cleary oversimplified, ignoring labelling units and made no provisions for aquarists who keep their fish in benzene instead of water 
#23
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 10 July 2009 - 03:03 PM
I love this group... smart aleck responses to my smart aleck snipe... you guys are alright.
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#24
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Posted 10 July 2009 - 05:30 PM
I have to disagree about the strips being useless. I've tested a few brands against liquid tests, and found them to agree. As well, the strips use themselves up pretty quickly, requiring you to buy more, which keeps the chemistry in the strips fresh and non-oxidized. (You are checking the package dates, right?)
Liquid kits, if you don't use them, tend to hang around long after the dates on the package, which means the chemichals inside have more of a chance to degrade and thus are less accurate.
Regardless, the strips are better than no testing, and work rather well anyway.
Liquid kits, if you don't use them, tend to hang around long after the dates on the package, which means the chemichals inside have more of a chance to degrade and thus are less accurate.
Regardless, the strips are better than no testing, and work rather well anyway.
#25
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Posted 11 July 2009 - 09:59 PM
I changed more water this week than usual and finally got the ammonia to safe, i celebrated by ordering some fish from sachs. I am finally safe. (not sure if this mean cycling is done, it does mean i have got it safe for now though).
#26
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Posted 12 July 2009 - 08:58 AM
Hmm... how is the nitrite level?
The first reduction in ammonia is generally the most dangerous time, not a safe point, because the conversion of ammonia to nitrite results in an even more toxic waste product. It does mean you're making progress, and you likely don't have a long time left, but I would not recommend adding more fish until you see nitrite at zero.
The first reduction in ammonia is generally the most dangerous time, not a safe point, because the conversion of ammonia to nitrite results in an even more toxic waste product. It does mean you're making progress, and you likely don't have a long time left, but I would not recommend adding more fish until you see nitrite at zero.
#27
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Posted 12 July 2009 - 02:27 PM
Hmm... how is the nitrite level?
The first reduction in ammonia is generally the most dangerous time, not a safe point, because the conversion of ammonia to nitrite results in an even more toxic waste product. It does mean you're making progress, and you likely don't have a long time left, but I would not recommend adding more fish until you see nitrite at zero.
Suprisingly ok. This is the first week i seen signs of nitrite on the strips and it's floated between safe and caution levels.
Oddly enough nitrate has been slowly growing (but still safe) for a few weeks which implies that the nitrite feeding bacteria kept up with ammonia breakdown until recently.
And it's too late on not ordering. I have 2 rainbow darters, a redline darter, a banded sunfish, a dollar sunfish, and a tadpole madtom on the way. If at max size this will put my tank close to full capacity, which sucks as i really want alot more fish.
#28
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Posted 12 July 2009 - 06:14 PM
Suprisingly ok. This is the first week i seen signs of nitrite on the strips and it's floated between safe and caution levels.
Oddly enough nitrate has been slowly growing (but still safe) for a few weeks which implies that the nitrite feeding bacteria kept up with ammonia breakdown until recently.
And it's too late on not ordering. I have 2 rainbow darters, a redline darter, a banded sunfish, a dollar sunfish, and a tadpole madtom on the way. If at max size this will put my tank close to full capacity, which sucks as i really want alot more fish.
ill take your redline and banded
#29
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Posted 13 July 2009 - 09:31 AM
ill take your redline and banded
MY FISHIES! mine, mine, mine!
But seriously I hope sach's has good healthy fish, the link to them (which i found on a post here on rainbow shiners) is http://www.aquaculturestore.com/ . I also ordered a freshwater plankton mix to feed them.
I do want more fish though. But I am reaching my limit. A book I read says a 55 gallomn tank of my size can hold 48 inches of fish.
My estimate on current size is this.
5 feeder guppies: 3.5 inches total
2 longnose dace: 8 inches total
4 fatheads: 8 inches total
1 tesselated darter: 2 inches total
1 blacknose dace: 2 inches
1 very lazy algea eater: 2 inches
2 otto algea eaters: 2 inches
that is a total of 27.5 inches
to this i will add the following (I am assuming they will be max size)
2 rainbow darters: 6 inches total
1 redline darter: 3 inches
1 tad-mad tadpole madtom: 3 inches
1 banded sunfish: 3 inches
1 dollar sunfish 5 inches
this will make it 47.5 inches total
sadly i doubt their is a half inch native fish i can get.
This is sad as i still want swamp darters, killiefish, and log perch. (plus a big tank for bigger fish would be nice but i lack room for it).
I wish I could afford something big like anything on this page http://www.fishtanks...mp;Category=122 or maybe one of these http://wardsci.com/p...hcd2=1247495458
I'd love to set up a giant tank for rock bass, perch, sunfish, and fallfish some day but i lack the room or money for one.
#30
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 13 July 2009 - 11:16 AM
But seriously I hope sach's has good healthy fish,
You can be confident... the Sach's are great guys, long time NANFAns, and good fishkeepers...
I do want more fish though. But I am reaching my limit. A book I read says a 55 gallomn tank of my size can hold 48 inches of fish.
These type of measurements are always wrong, sort of a gerealizatyion, and "one size fits none". Your fish from Sach's will likely not ALL be the MAX size... but I do think that you are getting close to capacity there... You can probably count out the guppies... but you could probably also add the swamp darters... they are hardy and partition out a different niche than some of the other darters you listed.
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#31
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Posted 13 July 2009 - 10:12 PM
Kind of a bad idea to put all those fish at once into a not-fully-cycled tank...make sure you do LOTS of water changes and watch your parameters, and don't be surprised if you lose a few...the key to successfully setting up a tank is patience. You're setting yourself up for a nasty ammonia spike, but hopefully plenty of water changes will neutralize it somewhat. And there's no real "safe" level for ammonia and nitrite besides 0.
Inches have very little to do with how many fish you can keep in a tank. Far more important is how active they are, how much waste they produce, what their adult size is, if they need to be in a school, if they're territorial, how hardy they are, what kind of filtration you have, etc. The "inch per gallon" rule is silly. And you could easily keep more than 48 inches of, say, neon tetras in a 55 gallon...but far, far less than 48 inches of oscars.
Also, redlines can be aggressive little buggers. Mine has terrorized pretty much every other fish in the tank and taken the fins and barbels off almost all of my poor corys--they've actually started wedging themselves behind the heater just to get away from him. He's also bullying the rainbow darter, who's much bigger than him. He's getting evicted to the 10 gallon soon...but if he starts bothering the swamp darter in there, I'll have to set up another tank for him. He's lucky he's so gorgeous.
Inches have very little to do with how many fish you can keep in a tank. Far more important is how active they are, how much waste they produce, what their adult size is, if they need to be in a school, if they're territorial, how hardy they are, what kind of filtration you have, etc. The "inch per gallon" rule is silly. And you could easily keep more than 48 inches of, say, neon tetras in a 55 gallon...but far, far less than 48 inches of oscars.
Also, redlines can be aggressive little buggers. Mine has terrorized pretty much every other fish in the tank and taken the fins and barbels off almost all of my poor corys--they've actually started wedging themselves behind the heater just to get away from him. He's also bullying the rainbow darter, who's much bigger than him. He's getting evicted to the 10 gallon soon...but if he starts bothering the swamp darter in there, I'll have to set up another tank for him. He's lucky he's so gorgeous.
#32
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Posted 14 July 2009 - 12:43 AM
Also, redlines can be aggressive little buggers. Mine has terrorized pretty much every other fish in the tank and taken the fins and barbels off almost all of my poor corys--they've actually started wedging themselves behind the heater just to get away from him. He's also bullying the rainbow darter, who's much bigger than him. He's getting evicted to the 10 gallon soon...but if he starts bothering the swamp darter in there, I'll have to set up another tank for him. He's lucky he's so gorgeous.
Thanks for the warning on the redline. I should really house one with a mummichog to see who is more pugnacious.
As for the ammonia warning, i am starting to see that the hard way, it wasn't in the yellow (clear) but instead the light green (safe) on the strips, but now it is growing darker again. Back to dayly water changes i guess.
#33
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Posted 14 July 2009 - 09:27 AM
The ammonia should clear up rapidly at this point. Under optimal growth conditions, population doubling time for Nitrosomonas is only about 13 hours. Your aquarium won't be exactly optimal, but you should be at most a couple days from zero ammonia at this point. Unfortunately the nitrite is significantly more toxic and produced at a faster rate (1 ppm ammonia is converted into about 2.7 ppm nitrite). You need to be changing water to prevent exceeding about .5 ppm nitrite at any point.
#34
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Posted 14 July 2009 - 01:11 PM
You need to be changing water to prevent exceeding about .5 ppm nitrite at any point
Won't it just keep responding to the amount of bioload in the tank and push back up to 0.5 anyway? I have always been curious about this and whether changing water during a cycle can prevent higher "spikes" (other than the nitrate spike at the very end which I am sure it does lessen) but in return lenghten the cycling period...or if it helps at all.
#35
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Posted 15 July 2009 - 01:20 AM
Ok, something weird is going on, but i think my tank cycled somehow.
I was told that tank cycling goes like this. High ammonia build up, then high nitrite build up, and finally nitrate.
I just did tests (both strip and liquid) and found things look safe (strips show the green between safe and stressed and no nitrite, liquid shows safe nitrite and ammonia).
My tank went from moderately high ammonia, to ammonia and slowly increasing nitrate, to ammonia slowly increasing nitrate and visible nitrite, to safe ammonia almost no nitraite and safe nitrate.
Now that cycling is done (I hope) I have a few questions.
1. many of my cyprinids have developed light patches before and after the dorsal fin, is this a sign of an illness of some kind? how can it be treated?
2. how much food is overfeeding? when i was a kid and we had a few small tropicals I was told "just a pinch of flakes". But this unruley bunch of fish eats a bloodworm cube and a freshwater frenzy cube each morning, and at times a pinch or two of dried food in the evening. They have reached the ravenous point where frozen food vanishes really fast. (dried is slower as only guppies and longnose feed on the surface (the longnose feed with a very satisfying "pop" as they breach the surface) some of the rest pick at food as it falls, i got to switch enftirely to dried invertebrates soon though as the fish are spoiled and are starting to dislike flakes more and more lately). I have more fish on the way too. Is this too much to feed them?
I was told that tank cycling goes like this. High ammonia build up, then high nitrite build up, and finally nitrate.
I just did tests (both strip and liquid) and found things look safe (strips show the green between safe and stressed and no nitrite, liquid shows safe nitrite and ammonia).
My tank went from moderately high ammonia, to ammonia and slowly increasing nitrate, to ammonia slowly increasing nitrate and visible nitrite, to safe ammonia almost no nitraite and safe nitrate.
Now that cycling is done (I hope) I have a few questions.
1. many of my cyprinids have developed light patches before and after the dorsal fin, is this a sign of an illness of some kind? how can it be treated?
2. how much food is overfeeding? when i was a kid and we had a few small tropicals I was told "just a pinch of flakes". But this unruley bunch of fish eats a bloodworm cube and a freshwater frenzy cube each morning, and at times a pinch or two of dried food in the evening. They have reached the ravenous point where frozen food vanishes really fast. (dried is slower as only guppies and longnose feed on the surface (the longnose feed with a very satisfying "pop" as they breach the surface) some of the rest pick at food as it falls, i got to switch enftirely to dried invertebrates soon though as the fish are spoiled and are starting to dislike flakes more and more lately). I have more fish on the way too. Is this too much to feed them?
#36
Guest_Gene2308_*
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Posted 15 July 2009 - 06:17 AM
Feeding is one of those things that is hard to describe to someone without actually showing them. In my experience, if you tell someone to feed "sparingly", they still tend to feed their fish WAY too much food. I usually just feed when I think about it, usually between 1-3 times per day...or maybe every 2 days depending upon what I feel like. It is almost unheard of to starve a fish, but it is quite easy to overfeed and have too much crap in your substrate.
I am no expert, but I usually feed "enough so that they are eating almost all of it before it floats down to the bottom." Then I may give a little more until they really slow down....that's it. If you miss 2-3 days....no problem. Err on the side of feeding small amount frequently rather than one huge feeding.
Oh, and whatever you do don't ever use those "feeding blocks"....which are about as worthless as cycle, stress zyme, and cheap activated charcoal. If you go out of town for more than 6-7 days, just have someone drop a pinch in the tank at some point....you're good to go....or just don't worry about it at all, they're probably fine.
I am no expert, but I usually feed "enough so that they are eating almost all of it before it floats down to the bottom." Then I may give a little more until they really slow down....that's it. If you miss 2-3 days....no problem. Err on the side of feeding small amount frequently rather than one huge feeding.
Oh, and whatever you do don't ever use those "feeding blocks"....which are about as worthless as cycle, stress zyme, and cheap activated charcoal. If you go out of town for more than 6-7 days, just have someone drop a pinch in the tank at some point....you're good to go....or just don't worry about it at all, they're probably fine.
#37
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Posted 15 July 2009 - 08:42 AM
Won't it just keep responding to the amount of bioload in the tank and push back up to 0.5 anyway? I have always been curious about this and whether changing water during a cycle can prevent higher "spikes" (other than the nitrate spike at the very end which I am sure it does lessen) but in return lenghten the cycling period...or if it helps at all.
Yes, it will keep rising. This recommendation is based on keeping fish alive, not maintaining a stable chemistry. If you don't change water, ammonia or nitrite will spike high enough to kill your fish before the cycle completes. Changing water does prolong the cycle, which is why fishless cycling is recommended.
#38
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 15 July 2009 - 12:51 PM
Feeding is one of those things that is hard to describe to someone without actually showing them.
I really agree with this and would also agree with the comments about skipping two or three days. I'm sure there re circumstances (growing out fry, preparing fish for breeding, etc.) where you want to feed a lot... but in most cases, just keeping fish happy... you can feed them two or three dys in a row and then skip two or three and they will be fine. Shiners are always hungry you can not use their eagerness to eat as a measure of anything.
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#39
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Posted 15 July 2009 - 02:26 PM
I generally feed my fish every other day. Sometimes I'll feed them several days in a row, sometimes I'll go 2 days between feedings.
As for the light patches...a picture would really help. Fish tend to become pale when they're stressed.
What are your exact number readings for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate? Again, there is no such thing as "safe" levels of ammonia or nitrate--if it's not 0, it's too high, and it means your tank isn't quite cycled yet. Nitrate starts to become dangerous at about 40 ppm and up, and you generally want to keep it at 20 ppm or lower. What test kits are you using? The liquid test kits by API are what I use.
As for the light patches...a picture would really help. Fish tend to become pale when they're stressed.
What are your exact number readings for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate? Again, there is no such thing as "safe" levels of ammonia or nitrate--if it's not 0, it's too high, and it means your tank isn't quite cycled yet. Nitrate starts to become dangerous at about 40 ppm and up, and you generally want to keep it at 20 ppm or lower. What test kits are you using? The liquid test kits by API are what I use.
#40
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Posted 16 July 2009 - 06:03 AM
I really agree with this and would also agree with the comments about skipping two or three days.
Hey, now I am one for two in terms of our agreements.
We should sit down with a Guinness and let our sarcasm run free sometime
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