i recently made my own background for my 125 native stream tank with 3/4 inch stryofoam (from lowes) great stuff (foam insulant) and silicone II. I made sure to let it cure for the full amount of time (36 hours). i added water from my house which i have never had problems with in the past. (at least 15 previous water changes). i then put 10 darters of various species and some red belly dace in there. the fish did not seem to mind but after a while they got really sluggish and started to die. luckily i only lost 1 johnny and 1 dace. i saved the others and put them in a different tank (with the same house water just no background. my ph is 7.12. i have been making massive water changes and cycling aquasafe through it (b/c i thought it might have been chlorine). i then put some shiners in it to see how they would react and it was the same story. what should i do?
Water quality
Started by
Guest_mekaj_*
, Jul 06 2009 12:52 PM
22 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_fundulus_*
Guest_fundulus_*
-
- Guests
Posted 06 July 2009 - 01:04 PM
I would guess the styrofoam has some unpleasant volatile organics in it.
#3
Guest_jblaylock_*
Guest_jblaylock_*
-
- Guests
Posted 06 July 2009 - 01:44 PM
I have a couple thoughts.
1. My 1st would be just like Bruce said, you may be getting chemicals from the materials you used in the water. For this I would continue water changes and filter heavily with carbon to remove chemicals.
2. Is the tank cycled? If not, this could be your problem too.
1. My 1st would be just like Bruce said, you may be getting chemicals from the materials you used in the water. For this I would continue water changes and filter heavily with carbon to remove chemicals.
2. Is the tank cycled? If not, this could be your problem too.
#4
Guest_Newt_*
Guest_Newt_*
-
- Guests
Posted 06 July 2009 - 02:04 PM
GE Silicone II contains a mildewcide called Bioseal. This may be your culprit. GE Silicone I window and door formula has no mildewcide.
#5
Guest_andyavram_*
Guest_andyavram_*
-
- Guests
Posted 06 July 2009 - 03:39 PM
mekaj, I feel bad as we PMed quite a bit on how I made my background.
After reading lots of Dart Frog forums it seems bioseal is just the film that forms on top of dried silicon (I and II), but they decided to start marketing as something different in II and it shouldn't be a problem. I have used it for 3 tanks now and haven't had a problem (and I used ALOT of it) for both salamanders and fish.
As for the stryofoam and Great Stuff, I also bought mine at Lowes and had no problems. Both should be chemicall inert. Although my stryofoam was sealed in a bag, if it was exposed in the store it may have soaked up a nasty chemical (never really thought about it before or I would have mentioned it).
You can drain the tank and seal it with an epoxy, but I have never done that myself and don't know how to apply the epoxy.
I apologize if you feel I led you astray, but I haven't had problems myself.
Andy
After reading lots of Dart Frog forums it seems bioseal is just the film that forms on top of dried silicon (I and II), but they decided to start marketing as something different in II and it shouldn't be a problem. I have used it for 3 tanks now and haven't had a problem (and I used ALOT of it) for both salamanders and fish.
As for the stryofoam and Great Stuff, I also bought mine at Lowes and had no problems. Both should be chemicall inert. Although my stryofoam was sealed in a bag, if it was exposed in the store it may have soaked up a nasty chemical (never really thought about it before or I would have mentioned it).
You can drain the tank and seal it with an epoxy, but I have never done that myself and don't know how to apply the epoxy.
I apologize if you feel I led you astray, but I haven't had problems myself.
Andy
Edited by andyavram, 06 July 2009 - 03:40 PM.
#6
Guest_mekaj_*
Guest_mekaj_*
-
- Guests
Posted 06 July 2009 - 04:05 PM
i have a few thoughts
1: thanks for your help andy it waas greatly appreciated.
2: how would the 100% waterproof silicone have anything to do with it? not being rude just curious. wouldnt it have no affect?
3: the styrofoam had a plastic sheet over it that i removed so idk if its that.
4: would there be any way that i could test the water for harmful chemicals?
5: should i remove it or keep trying? it seems that when i put the fish in there if they get sluggish and look "unnatural" then i can take them into another quarantine tank and they recover very well
anything would help. i just really want to avoid taking it out because it took a long time to make and i would love to post some pictures of it with the fish in there
.
also on another note i had one of my tank raised longears in there and he didnt seem to be affected by it that much. nor was my bluegill. other than occasionally swimming at the top in an odd manner they were fine. any thoughts?
1: thanks for your help andy it waas greatly appreciated.
2: how would the 100% waterproof silicone have anything to do with it? not being rude just curious. wouldnt it have no affect?
3: the styrofoam had a plastic sheet over it that i removed so idk if its that.
4: would there be any way that i could test the water for harmful chemicals?
5: should i remove it or keep trying? it seems that when i put the fish in there if they get sluggish and look "unnatural" then i can take them into another quarantine tank and they recover very well
anything would help. i just really want to avoid taking it out because it took a long time to make and i would love to post some pictures of it with the fish in there
. also on another note i had one of my tank raised longears in there and he didnt seem to be affected by it that much. nor was my bluegill. other than occasionally swimming at the top in an odd manner they were fine. any thoughts?
#7
Guest_CATfishTONY_*
Guest_CATfishTONY_*
-
- Guests
Posted 06 July 2009 - 04:28 PM
[quote name='mekaj' date='Jul 6 2009, 04:05 PM' post='61394']
i have a few thoughts
1: thanks for your help andy it waas greatly appreciated.
2: how would the 100% waterproof silicone have anything to do with it? not being rude just curious. wouldnt it have no affect?
mekaj,read the fine print on the tube many types or silicone are not fish friendly.
on a side note was the water temp a drastic change every time you added the fish?
i have a few thoughts
1: thanks for your help andy it waas greatly appreciated.
2: how would the 100% waterproof silicone have anything to do with it? not being rude just curious. wouldnt it have no affect?
mekaj,read the fine print on the tube many types or silicone are not fish friendly.
on a side note was the water temp a drastic change every time you added the fish?
#8
Guest_mekaj_*
Guest_mekaj_*
-
- Guests
Posted 06 July 2009 - 05:47 PM
i will read exactly what the tube says
" silicone II premium waterproof caulk. window/door/attic/basement/trim. 100% silicone. permanently waterproof. does not shrink or crack. bioseal mold/mildew protection. methanol and ammonia are released during cure. avoid breathing vapors. wear skin and eye protection. contains hexamthydisazane, methyltrimethoxysilane and petroleum disastilates.
those dont sound good but shouldnt the bioseal hold all that in?
and no the temperate was not a drastic one. i let it settle to the temp there were used to.
i dont think it was the silicone b/c the kind i used was cedarwood silicone II. i know andy used it and had no problems.
do you know how long you let it cure for andy?
" silicone II premium waterproof caulk. window/door/attic/basement/trim. 100% silicone. permanently waterproof. does not shrink or crack. bioseal mold/mildew protection. methanol and ammonia are released during cure. avoid breathing vapors. wear skin and eye protection. contains hexamthydisazane, methyltrimethoxysilane and petroleum disastilates.
those dont sound good but shouldnt the bioseal hold all that in?
and no the temperate was not a drastic one. i let it settle to the temp there were used to.
i dont think it was the silicone b/c the kind i used was cedarwood silicone II. i know andy used it and had no problems.
do you know how long you let it cure for andy?
#9
Guest_Uland_*
Guest_Uland_*
-
- Guests
Posted 06 July 2009 - 05:56 PM
I have to start with the most obvious questions...when and roughly where did you get the fish? Approximately what is the tank temperature?
I really avoid taking fish in summer months since they rarely have the high survival rate I've come to expect from cooler months. If you've had these in captivity for a while, please just ignore this post and sorry if I'm leading this in a useless tangent.
I really avoid taking fish in summer months since they rarely have the high survival rate I've come to expect from cooler months. If you've had these in captivity for a while, please just ignore this post and sorry if I'm leading this in a useless tangent.
#10
Guest_Newt_*
Guest_Newt_*
-
- Guests
Posted 06 July 2009 - 06:11 PM
Andy, do you have a link to the dart frog forum discussion on Bioseal? GE calls it a 'proprietary additive', which I don't think they would if they weren't actually adding anything. Also, all silicones form skins. Not all silicones are mildew-proof.
I have not seen any studies specifically linking Bioseal to animal deaths, but it seems like something you wouldn't want in your tank.
Back on topic- there aren't any tests that will cover the whole range of possible toxins in your water. I've noticed that styrofoam sheet often has a strong smell when you remove the plastic; this could be some kind of volatile organic, as fundulus mentioned. Otherwise, I don't know what it could be. 36 hours should be more than enough time for both silicone and Great Stuff to cure.
I have not seen any studies specifically linking Bioseal to animal deaths, but it seems like something you wouldn't want in your tank.
Back on topic- there aren't any tests that will cover the whole range of possible toxins in your water. I've noticed that styrofoam sheet often has a strong smell when you remove the plastic; this could be some kind of volatile organic, as fundulus mentioned. Otherwise, I don't know what it could be. 36 hours should be more than enough time for both silicone and Great Stuff to cure.
#11
Guest_mekaj_*
Guest_mekaj_*
-
- Guests
Posted 06 July 2009 - 06:25 PM
ya thats what i thought to :/. oh well i guess i will just keep making water changes for the next week or so and hopefully that will work. im going to also change my filter pads for my canister too (there getting old anyways). maybe by the end of the week ill have some photos up .
to answer your question i got these fish from lime creek in buchanon county iowa, right next to brandon IA. i have had them for several weeks. Ive got 15 rainbows (not from that creek, had them for about 5months), 4 banded, 6 johnnys, 10 fantails, and 2 logperch. i got most of them from lime creek. sampling every once and a while not taking to many out, although there is a massive fantail population in that creek. i have had them for a couple months. they were in my smaller tanks and eating well while i was doing the background. i tried to acclimate them to the new tank very carefully. these are my babies i dont wanna lose them
. to answer your question i got these fish from lime creek in buchanon county iowa, right next to brandon IA. i have had them for several weeks. Ive got 15 rainbows (not from that creek, had them for about 5months), 4 banded, 6 johnnys, 10 fantails, and 2 logperch. i got most of them from lime creek. sampling every once and a while not taking to many out, although there is a massive fantail population in that creek. i have had them for a couple months. they were in my smaller tanks and eating well while i was doing the background. i tried to acclimate them to the new tank very carefully. these are my babies i dont wanna lose them
#12
Guest_nativeplanter_*
Guest_nativeplanter_*
-
- Guests
Posted 06 July 2009 - 09:04 PM
I think that even when cured, silicone still lets off volatiles for a little while. I wonder if it would help if you were to drain the tank and put it in the hot sun, or heat up the inside with a lightbulb (since it's a big tank), to try to drive off any volatiles. Might try that for a couple days to see if it helps.
#13
Guest_schambers_*
Guest_schambers_*
-
- Guests
Posted 06 July 2009 - 09:14 PM
That's a good idea, Nativeplanter. 36 hours curing time might be great for normal use, but this is an unusual use of the product.
#14
Guest_andyavram_*
Guest_andyavram_*
-
- Guests
Posted 07 July 2009 - 06:56 AM
I had mine drying for at least a week or two and then when I filled it I let it sit for at least that long again before I eventually threw in some ghost shrimp.
Newt, I don't have any links as it was over a year or two ago when I was researching all this. Either way my tank has been up an running now for almost a year with no problems.
Andy
Newt, I don't have any links as it was over a year or two ago when I was researching all this. Either way my tank has been up an running now for almost a year with no problems.
Andy
#15
Guest_JohnO_*
Guest_JohnO_*
-
- Guests
Posted 07 July 2009 - 11:45 AM
I had the same thing happen when I used a brand new cleaning sponge as a filter element. The darters got sluggish, quit eating, and started dying. Saved most by transferring to a different tank with fresh water. Most likely, an antifungal chemical on the sponge.
Why take a chance with putting anything but natural or aquarium certified substances in the water? Heck, they're lacing drywall with sulfur these days, and I found out the hard way about poisoned sponges.
My background is large slabs of limestone creek rock stood on end, works pretty well. Filled the tank with sand taken from the creek on my farm, and water taken from the same creek. Built a couple of darter apartment buildings by stacking smaller slabs of limestone creek rock, and they love it, when they're not quarreling over a favorite spot.
Why take a chance with putting anything but natural or aquarium certified substances in the water? Heck, they're lacing drywall with sulfur these days, and I found out the hard way about poisoned sponges.
My background is large slabs of limestone creek rock stood on end, works pretty well. Filled the tank with sand taken from the creek on my farm, and water taken from the same creek. Built a couple of darter apartment buildings by stacking smaller slabs of limestone creek rock, and they love it, when they're not quarreling over a favorite spot.
#16
Guest_mekaj_*
Guest_mekaj_*
-
- Guests
Posted 07 July 2009 - 12:31 PM
i used that stuff b/c i have seen people that have done it and it worked. im pretty sure my problem was that i did not let it cure long enough to be safe in the water. im going to just keep filtering and making huge water changes for a week or so and try it again.
Edited by mekaj, 07 July 2009 - 12:31 PM.
#17
Guest_jblaylock_*
Guest_jblaylock_*
-
- Guests
Posted 07 July 2009 - 12:48 PM
i used that stuff b/c i have seen people that have done it and it worked. im pretty sure my problem was that i did not let it cure long enough to be safe in the water. im going to just keep filtering and making huge water changes for a week or so and try it again.
You may want to go buy some carbon and make your own carbon bags to help remove the chemicals quicker. I make mine out of pantyhose (boil them first to remove excess dye). I would put them where there is some water flow...this may help.
#18
Guest_mekaj_*
Guest_mekaj_*
-
- Guests
Posted 07 July 2009 - 08:21 PM
how many do you think i would need?
#19
Guest_jblaylock_*
Guest_jblaylock_*
-
- Guests
Posted 07 July 2009 - 08:38 PM
how many do you think i would need?
Depends on tank size. Lets say for a 55gal, I would use two small baggies. Make a bag, fill it with some, tie it up and drop it in. Don't use a ton of it in the bag, maybe a cup of it or so in one bag. Make sure it is somewhere where the water flows through/around it.
#20
Guest_scottefontay_*
Guest_scottefontay_*
-
- Guests
Posted 08 July 2009 - 11:17 AM
I would continue the water changes and toss in some canaries....(rosey reds, guppies, etc.)
3 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 3 guests, 0 anonymous users
NANFA Youtube Channel 
