I've consulted with some people who consulted with others who are pretty knowledgeable and they figure it to be a redfin. I'm guessing since redfins don't get fed the same as they do in aquaria, they will probably look different than the larger wild ones we see. Redfins should only get to about 12", 13" max so if this fish exceeds that by a lot we may have to relook at it. There are a couple of ways to be sure by counting the branchiostegal rays and the pores on the mandibles but I imagine it would be difficult to identify with a live specimen.
Juvenile chain pickerel
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, Jan 03 2007 10:35 PM
37 replies to this topic
#22
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Posted 05 January 2007 - 11:35 PM
The jury is still out. BTW "redfins" are not a good distinguishing characteristic on redfin pickerel. Unless they come from Dustin.It could just be that there is a certain amount of proportional range amongst individuals. The first time I saw it in October, I was skeptical that it was a redfin. I had never seen a redfin in person before (at that time), but I thought they were supposed to look more like grass pickerels than does this fish. Also, its fins are not red. But Matt insisted it was a redfin, so I took his word, since he has more experience. When you saw it that day in December, Brian, and said it was not a redfin, but a chain, I felt vindicated.
Matt
(Just kidding. I wanted to use that smilie!)
I still say it looks EXACTLY like the pictures of a chain pickerel from NatureServe Explorer. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. It is a chain pickerel.
I think, in the end, though, only Matt will resolve the debate by updating us several months from now as the fish grows (or doesn't grow, as the case may be).
Seeing those pictures of juvenile chain pickerels has been quite informative. Thanks, guys!
#23
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Posted 06 January 2007 - 05:18 PM
Since this fish has been bothering me so much, I went to the library today to take a peak at the Freshwater Fishes of VA by Jenkins and Burkhead. Since this fish originated from VA, I thought this would be a better source than most.
This fish was collected in the eastern portion of VA.
Interspecific differences in ontogentic development of the color patterns (Crossman 1962a, 1966) are inconsistent in Virginia fish. Often the side of large young and small juvenile redfin pickerel is distinctly barred, blotched, or both, resembling small chain pickerel. Some of the atypical fish may be hybrids
both quotes from Freshwater Fishes of VA, p. 240Hybridization causes problems of identification in southeastern Virginia.
This fish was collected in the eastern portion of VA.
#25
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Posted 23 January 2007 - 01:07 PM
Fish died. After being vigorously courted by a large grass pickerel for two days, the fish in question which was totally uninterested, and fairly disgusted, found a hole and took a leap. Sad, but I was able to do some ID work on it.
Branchiostegal ray count = 13
Submandibular pores = 4
Lateral line scale count = 118
The ray count and the scale count are at the high end for Redfin.
The pore count could be either Chain or Redfin
But the ray count though on the high end for a Redfin, is below the minimum number for a Chain.
So I would assume that this fish was indeed a Redfin, or possible hybrid Redfin x Chain. But would rule out pure Chain.
Though remember that this fish outgrew another redfin 2 to 1. Possible heterosis?
This fish was 4-6 inches in August, and today it measured 11.75 inches, quite astounding growth for a Redfin.
Branchiostegal ray count = 13
Submandibular pores = 4
Lateral line scale count = 118
The ray count and the scale count are at the high end for Redfin.
The pore count could be either Chain or Redfin
But the ray count though on the high end for a Redfin, is below the minimum number for a Chain.
So I would assume that this fish was indeed a Redfin, or possible hybrid Redfin x Chain. But would rule out pure Chain.
Though remember that this fish outgrew another redfin 2 to 1. Possible heterosis?
This fish was 4-6 inches in August, and today it measured 11.75 inches, quite astounding growth for a Redfin.
#26
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Posted 23 January 2007 - 02:48 PM
I think after that diagnosis I would be guessing a hybrid too. The color patern was just way off for a redfin looked like a chain but other features point more toward redfin and the two are known to naturally hybridize so that would be a good educated guess in my opinion.
#27
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 24 January 2007 - 11:53 AM
Just a question... when you said "found a hole and took a leap." do you mean that the fish was found dead on the floor? I am just curious, because the redfin that I had some time back was also rather prone to coming out of the water, and I thought it was strange that he would get so spooked as to jump out of the water.
In your experience is this common? So should we all make sure to have a nice top on any pickerel tanks?
MW
In your experience is this common? So should we all make sure to have a nice top on any pickerel tanks?
MW
Fish died. After being vigorously courted by a large grass pickerel for two days, the fish in question which was totally uninterested, and fairly disgusted, found a hole and took a leap. Sad, but I was able to do some ID work on it.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#30
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Posted 24 January 2007 - 02:31 PM
As these guys have already said, pickerel are probably the jumpingest fish around. It can be hard just trying to keep them in the collection bucket!. They also seem to have a knack for finding the holes where filters enter the tank.
#31
Guest_titel124_*
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Posted 23 April 2007 - 06:51 PM
i dont know much about red or grass pickerel but i was under the understanding that a grass was a mix between a red and a chain???????????? if this is true then wouldnt a hybrid just be a grass????????? i am prob way off cause before a couple days ago i didnt now there was any kind of pickerel besides chain
#32
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Posted 23 April 2007 - 06:54 PM
Not to sound rude, but you're way off.
Check out this page : http://nanfa.org/bccdiversity.shtml
for the a list of all known species in NA.
Check out this page : http://nanfa.org/bccdiversity.shtml
for the a list of all known species in NA.
#33
Guest_edbihary_*
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Posted 23 April 2007 - 11:44 PM
i dont know much about red or grass pickerel but i was under the understanding that a grass was a mix between a red and a chain???????????? if this is true then wouldnt a hybrid just be a grass????????? i am prob way off cause before a couple days ago i didnt now there was any kind of pickerel besides chain
No.
Chain Pickerel = Esox Niger
Grass Pickerel = Esox Americanus Vermiculatus
Redfin Pickerel = Esox Americanus Americanus
Grass Pickerel and Redfin Pickerel are the same species. The Redfin Pickerel is a regional variant that exists to the east of the Appalacians. The Grass Pickerel is a regional variant that exists west of the Appalacians. For some reason, there are no pickerels in the Appalacians. There are intergrades in the Gulf coastal area.
#37
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Posted 12 May 2007 - 12:02 AM
I actually went and did some collecting today. I caught a redfin of nearly identical size to one that I raised up from about an inch long, caught in mid march. So I was going to grow out two redfins to put in my 75g. However...
I JUST finished acclimating the new guy and put him in the tank with the other. They are nearly identical in pattern, but the one I have been raising has got to be a chain now that I see them together and see snout length. I will post pics tomorrow hopefully to compare a 4 inch chain to a 4 inch redfin side by side.
I JUST finished acclimating the new guy and put him in the tank with the other. They are nearly identical in pattern, but the one I have been raising has got to be a chain now that I see them together and see snout length. I will post pics tomorrow hopefully to compare a 4 inch chain to a 4 inch redfin side by side.
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