Crawfish nightmare
Started by
Guest_JohnO_*
, Nov 27 2009 09:49 AM
19 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_SlimSanta_*
Guest_SlimSanta_*
-
- Guests
Posted 27 November 2009 - 11:32 AM
That darter would give me nightmares too. Look at the TEETH! 
#3
Guest_catfish_hunter_*
Guest_catfish_hunter_*
-
- Guests
Posted 27 November 2009 - 12:21 PM
Nice set of fangs on that darter! 
#4
Guest_blakemarkwell_*
Guest_blakemarkwell_*
-
- Guests
Posted 27 November 2009 - 01:07 PM
Nice shot! I just love Nothonotus too much, I really need to get down to Kentucky and Tennessee ASAP to spend time with my fish friends.
Blake
Blake
#5
Guest_JohnO_*
Guest_JohnO_*
-
- Guests
Posted 27 November 2009 - 02:15 PM
Oh, here he is from the side...
#6
Guest_njJohn_*
Guest_njJohn_*
-
- Guests
Posted 27 November 2009 - 06:28 PM
Nice fish. How big is it?
#7
Guest_JohnO_*
Guest_JohnO_*
-
- Guests
Posted 27 November 2009 - 06:41 PM
Around 3", about as big as they get. This one is a real ham, just loves to pose.
#8
Guest_donkeyman876_*
Guest_donkeyman876_*
-
- Guests
Posted 27 November 2009 - 09:23 PM
nice shots of a pretty fish.
#9
Guest_farmertodd_*
Guest_farmertodd_*
-
- Guests
Posted 28 November 2009 - 08:18 PM
That's a great picture and specimen John. They're one of my absolute favorites, I totally miss them. Thanks for posting 
Todd
Todd
#10
Guest_JohnO_*
Guest_JohnO_*
-
- Guests
Posted 28 November 2009 - 09:47 PM
That's a great picture and specimen John. They're one of my absolute favorites, I totally miss them. Thanks for posting
Todd
Come on down and get some. We tossed back quite a few. Hit the Green for orangefin, maybe stop at fishing creek for a snubnose, might get lucky and find a redline, finish up by stopping over at Buck for bluebreast and bloodfin. Darters don't get much prettier than those.
#11
Guest_farmertodd_*
Guest_farmertodd_*
-
- Guests
Posted 28 November 2009 - 11:11 PM
Was actually in you and Josh's neck of the woods a week and a half ago. Stopped on the Rockcastle under the I-75 bridge on the way down to a conference. Water was high though, and I was just getting over a cold, so yeah, saw the obligatory bluebreasts and bloodfins and moved on down the road And yes, it's amazing how abundant the orangefin are in their geography and habitat. Would like to do some niche conservatism work with them and bluebreast, and then their tippecanoe and gold darter counterparts in the next couple years.
Todd
And yes, it's amazing how abundant the orangefin are in their geography and habitat. Would like to do some niche conservatism work with them and bluebreast, and then their tippecanoe and gold darter counterparts in the next couple years. Todd
#12
Guest_JohnO_*
Guest_JohnO_*
-
- Guests
Posted 29 November 2009 - 01:16 PM
Funny thing I've noticed... the bluebreast and bloodfin we found in the Rockcastle weren't nearly as large or as robust looking as those in Buck. Same with striped, lots of little ones in the Rockcastle, but the large ones were all in a small creek that drains into the R south of Livingston. I had one in full breeding colors, bright white spots on the pectorals. Pity I didn't get a photo of it before it lost the colors.
Could be environmental? I did notice that when dragging the bottom of the Rockcastle, I was stirring up oily residue, especially just upstream of Livingston. Plenty of darters, just no large ones.
Could be environmental? I did notice that when dragging the bottom of the Rockcastle, I was stirring up oily residue, especially just upstream of Livingston. Plenty of darters, just no large ones.
#13
Guest_farmertodd_*
Guest_farmertodd_*
-
- Guests
Posted 29 November 2009 - 02:42 PM
I'm going to guess that it's more related to some relationship between "top down" effects of predators (or lack thereof) like smallmouth and spotted bass and the carrying capacity of the local environments for darters.
When you see scrawny, yet abundant insectivores like darters, it's usually related to lacking much predative control. Their abundance is controlled by the productivity of the environment (how many macroinvertebrates it can produce), to which they saturate the environment to a precarious point where macroinvertebrate numbers may have crashed.
Deer, for example, are doing a similar thing right now, lacking wolves and cougar in the east. We find them hyperabundant in really marginal habitat for them.
Sometimes, though, we see where the environment controls the predators in this darter question. I find that when there are long shallow riffles, the darters will saturate those environments irrespective of predator populations. It's quite curious to watch darters disappear as soon as the riffle tail drops to 9 cm deep
I'm definitely investigating this specifically next summer if I haven't gotten enough data supporting this hypothesis yet. I think we get real excited when we find gobs of darters, as though that indicates "high quality". However, with what I'm saying here, that's what we call a trophic cascade in Ecology, and most of the time, that's thought of as a negative event. If you toss in this somewhat misguided notion of managing for "historic community", well, we shouldn't rest until there's piles and piles of smallmouth and darters have been relegated to the edges and a few choice riffles that have the "just right" makeup of rocks.
Todd
When you see scrawny, yet abundant insectivores like darters, it's usually related to lacking much predative control. Their abundance is controlled by the productivity of the environment (how many macroinvertebrates it can produce), to which they saturate the environment to a precarious point where macroinvertebrate numbers may have crashed.
Deer, for example, are doing a similar thing right now, lacking wolves and cougar in the east. We find them hyperabundant in really marginal habitat for them.
Sometimes, though, we see where the environment controls the predators in this darter question. I find that when there are long shallow riffles, the darters will saturate those environments irrespective of predator populations. It's quite curious to watch darters disappear as soon as the riffle tail drops to 9 cm deep
I'm definitely investigating this specifically next summer if I haven't gotten enough data supporting this hypothesis yet. I think we get real excited when we find gobs of darters, as though that indicates "high quality". However, with what I'm saying here, that's what we call a trophic cascade in Ecology, and most of the time, that's thought of as a negative event. If you toss in this somewhat misguided notion of managing for "historic community", well, we shouldn't rest until there's piles and piles of smallmouth and darters have been relegated to the edges and a few choice riffles that have the "just right" makeup of rocks.
Todd
#14
Guest_fundulus_*
Guest_fundulus_*
-
- Guests
Posted 29 November 2009 - 03:35 PM
You're right about darter population structure, Todd. I have a paper that I'm fixing from reviewers' comments on black darters that compares both reproductive effort and physical size between two populations, one in a fairly "clean" environment outside of Huntsville, AL, and the other from a nearly eutrophic creek running through the middle of Athens, AL. The ones in the "clean" stream were significantly smaller and produced fewer eggs, with the development of mature gonads by both sexes in both populations being about the same. One loose correlate that we noticed, along with others in the literature, is that total dissolved solids seems to be a marker for higher stream production. Next time I have a student at loose ends for a project we should examine diet in black darters in the two streams. I would guess that the orangefins that JohnO has observed would show some similar pattern between streams.
#15
Guest_JohnO_*
Guest_JohnO_*
-
- Guests
Posted 30 November 2009 - 10:42 AM
Interesting... looking back to the striped darters, Josh and I found dozens of small ones in a tributary stream to the Rockcastle, just above Livingston. This was also the stream where I was stirring up traces of oil in the substrate. Same stream had small rock bass and bluegill. Now that I think about it, all the fish in that stream were small. Below Livingston, in a tributary much further off of the Rockcastle, is where we found the large striped darters, and it was actually a considerably smaller stream. Since we didn't explore the deep pools in the smaller stream, I can't comment on predators, other than to say we did come across a couple of large logperch. Didn't notice any large predatory fish, but wasn't really looking.
Same was true for speckled darters, that little stream yielded a couple of large (for a speckled), brilliantly colored males, whereas the Rockcastle itself right at Livingston had smaller ones. Like emerald darters, the speckled never seem to last more than a month or two in the tank.
Same was true for speckled darters, that little stream yielded a couple of large (for a speckled), brilliantly colored males, whereas the Rockcastle itself right at Livingston had smaller ones. Like emerald darters, the speckled never seem to last more than a month or two in the tank.
#16
Guest_farmertodd_*
Guest_farmertodd_*
-
- Guests
Posted 30 November 2009 - 05:30 PM
As Bruce's study shows, productivity is one part of it. No carbon flowing through the system, no food, no size, no offspring. (Bruce I'd be real glad to get a copy of that once you have it worked up ).
But all other things being equal... I would venture that if you snorkeled that small stream's pools, you'd be met with some bass you'd never have expected to be in that tiny thing. You might also see how having low numbers with a big body size would be selected for in those situations - there's only so much prime habitat for the males to split up, so fewer numbers with a bigger body size will allow for the biggest and strongest to occupy the right habitat... Also gives you more bulk that says "Hey bass, you don't wanna mess with me!" You wouldn't believe what you see when you throw on a mask.
One of my favorite big river situations where this occurs is on the Licking River (Muskingum River) in Zanesville, OH. There's gobs of flathead and channel catfish, walleye and sauger all over that thing coming up from the Muskingum to Dillon Falls, and the riffle habitat is deeper than some of the nearby till plain supplied streams. Look at some of these beef cakes I pulled out a year ago:
Licking_bluebreast_male_91mm.jpg 95.49KB
2 downloads
logperch_ruler.jpg 197.69KB
3 downloads
greenside.jpg 86.77KB
2 downloads
These were the biggest, but most were within millimeters. In fact, I had real trouble finding any YOY. They were tucked up in the corners tho!
Another place I got to enjoy this show was the Whitewater River in Indiana, which is part of the Great Miami River drainage. Positively crawling with smallmouth. Woe be to any bass that tried to mess with the couple super male greenside darters we saw swimming right about with them. Wow, were they horses! Couldn't catch one tho. All the other darters were crammed up into about 10 sq ft of riffle on the inside bend at that riffle. Neat stuff.
Todd
). But all other things being equal... I would venture that if you snorkeled that small stream's pools, you'd be met with some bass you'd never have expected to be in that tiny thing. You might also see how having low numbers with a big body size would be selected for in those situations - there's only so much prime habitat for the males to split up, so fewer numbers with a bigger body size will allow for the biggest and strongest to occupy the right habitat... Also gives you more bulk that says "Hey bass, you don't wanna mess with me!" You wouldn't believe what you see when you throw on a mask.
One of my favorite big river situations where this occurs is on the Licking River (Muskingum River) in Zanesville, OH. There's gobs of flathead and channel catfish, walleye and sauger all over that thing coming up from the Muskingum to Dillon Falls, and the riffle habitat is deeper than some of the nearby till plain supplied streams. Look at some of these beef cakes I pulled out a year ago:
Licking_bluebreast_male_91mm.jpg 95.49KB
2 downloads
logperch_ruler.jpg 197.69KB
3 downloads
greenside.jpg 86.77KB
2 downloadsThese were the biggest, but most were within millimeters. In fact, I had real trouble finding any YOY. They were tucked up in the corners tho!
Another place I got to enjoy this show was the Whitewater River in Indiana, which is part of the Great Miami River drainage. Positively crawling with smallmouth. Woe be to any bass that tried to mess with the couple super male greenside darters we saw swimming right about with them. Wow, were they horses! Couldn't catch one tho. All the other darters were crammed up into about 10 sq ft of riffle on the inside bend at that riffle. Neat stuff.
Todd
Edited by farmertodd, 30 November 2009 - 05:32 PM.
#17
Guest_blakemarkwell_*
Guest_blakemarkwell_*
-
- Guests
Posted 30 November 2009 - 05:53 PM
Todd, that has to be the biggest and most beautiful E. camurum I have ever seen. The ones we find here can get massive, but Lance and I have noticed that some months you get sick of looking at them you catch so many and some months you can't buy one (sampling the same riffle....). By the way, what time of year was that E. blennioides and E. camurum sampled? I need to make my way over to Ohio sometime. 
Blake
Blake
#18
Guest_farmertodd_*
Guest_farmertodd_*
-
- Guests
Posted 30 November 2009 - 11:31 PM
Yeah, he was a brute Those pictures were all from October 2008.
Interesting observation. Can you correlate abundance to discharge? I'm thinkin' darters are way more migratory than we'd ever expect.
We'll have to see about doing a little gathering there in Central Ohio next year. I've made a lot of friends in the Chilicothe area and that will put us on the doorstep of a lot of opportunities. Regardless, you're always welcome!
Todd
Those pictures were all from October 2008. Interesting observation. Can you correlate abundance to discharge? I'm thinkin' darters are way more migratory than we'd ever expect.
We'll have to see about doing a little gathering there in Central Ohio next year. I've made a lot of friends in the Chilicothe area and that will put us on the doorstep of a lot of opportunities. Regardless, you're always welcome!
Todd
#19
Guest_natureman187_*
Guest_natureman187_*
-
- Guests
Posted 01 December 2009 - 02:52 AM
Interesting observation. Can you correlate abundance to discharge? I'm thinkin' darters are way more migratory than we'd ever expect.
Yes, and with siltation as well. The yearly/biyearly cycles we're seeing are quite spectacular.
Edited by natureman187, 01 December 2009 - 03:00 AM.
#20
Guest_JohnO_*
Guest_JohnO_*
-
- Guests
Posted 03 December 2009 - 04:50 PM
Come to think of it, I pulled a greenside out of a strong riffle in Buck that was around 6". Big ugly fellow, I thought it was a sculpin on steroids when I first saw it in the net.
I think we put a photo of it on here this summer, before we sent it on its way. Kinda scary looking.
I think we put a photo of it on here this summer, before we sent it on its way. Kinda scary looking.
0 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users
NANFA Youtube Channel 
