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Another bighead carp development: Not Good


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#21 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 12:29 PM

Good point catfish, I know after bass fishing tournaments (Tablerock lake)here there is a high mortality rate for the released bass....why not have more non-native tournaments for spearfishing of carp (and polefishing) in the midwest and cichlid tournaments in southern Florida (for Mayans,Oscars,Tilapia etc). We introduced these fish ....we should be the ones to get rid of them!


Exploiting invasives is fine, and killing them may feel good, but honestly is very unlikely to make any kind of a dent in their population. Picking off adults can wreck slow-maturing, low-fecundity species like turtles, but won't do a thing to most fish, especially the ones prone to become weedy. Their reproductive potential is absurd- a single large female carp can produce over a million eggs in a season. Every adult removed is a space opened up for one of the young carp to fill.

#22 Guest_BTDarters_*

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 11:43 PM

I'm sorry to say, but I think that that's kind of a pessimistic attitude, Newt.

Brian

#23 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 09:29 AM

Pessimistic, but realistic. The only way to preclude these species' success in habitats that meet their ecological niche requirements is to prevent their introduction in the first place. Otherwise, they wouldn't be "invasive" in the first place. These carps aren't uncommon species in their home ranges, by an measure, and there's plenty of food production pressure on them there.

Todd

#24 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 07:30 PM

Pessimistic, but realistic. The only way to preclude these species' success in habitats that meet their ecological niche requirements is to prevent their introduction in the first place. Otherwise, they wouldn't be "invasive" in the first place. These carps aren't uncommon species in their home ranges, by an measure, and there's plenty of food production pressure on them there.

Todd


I challenge "realistic".

It is very probable the Asian carps will colonize the Great Lakes because time is on their side when you are reliant upon "political will" and ignore the possibility of natural stream capture events.

We may need then be prepared to think realistically in terms of pest managment where eradication of the pest (Asian carps) is not likely, but cost effectively keeping abundances below some intolerable threshhold is. Examples for such management (sometimes unintentional) is abundant. Despite the high reproductive potential of most commercially harvested aquatic species (many comparable to the silver and bighead carps), it is still quite common to fish those species beyond sustainability which could easily be similar to being below some intolerable threshold.

#25 Guest_Mike_*

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 01:07 AM

I read somewhere, someone wanted to make a rendering plant to use the fish.

Putting a bounty on them like the Northern Squawfish would help.

I watch viedos of people bow fishing for them, and it looks like fun, but then some of them, just through the dieing fish back into the water. What a waste, we caught some bighead carp, I smoked them & they were good. They should eat them or send them to a rendering company.

#26 Guest_lozgod_*

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 02:05 AM

Forgive my ignorance. What do carp have to offer a rendering plant? What parts of the fish are used and for what?

Edited by lozgod, 07 February 2010 - 02:16 AM.


#27 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 10:02 AM

Forgive my ignorance. What do carp have to offer a rendering plant? What parts of the fish are used and for what?


Fish oils, fish meal and possibly gelatin. Similar markets based on herring and menhaden supplied by ocean going factory ships have a low profit margin and much of the products are directed towards animals feeds. I hope the Asian carps are unable to reach abundances anywhere near high enough to support such a market.

I think the human food market, if it can be developed, will fetch higher prices for all parties involved. Higher prices can justify more intensive fishing efforts more likley to keep the Asian carps abundances low enough that thresholds for economic / unacceptable ecological damage are not crossed.

#28 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 12:59 PM

While I have thought that a human food market could prove to be an interesting solution, I am concerned that it could lead to actually protecting a carp fishery in the future. If a market gets well established, then it would be worth $XXX million per year, and would have people lobbying to save it if we were able to make any real reduction in carp population. Sort of like how non-native trout populations are protected because of the income they bring to a region.

#29 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 03:34 PM

Do you mean like protections for bluefin tune, striped bass and cod? Regulations there; too little, too late.

I think the carp stocks would be suppressed by harvesting activity, even if take is regulated. Hopefully carp stocks would be suppressed enough to limit ecological damage.

The trout populations are a bit different, in that some stocks must be maintained by stocking. At some point in future, political winds might change causing a lack of support for stocking / regulations and the trout stocks could be allowed to fail or at least drop to levels of minimal impact on the rest of the system.

I must state I am not a proponent of establishing bighead and/or silver carps into the Great Lakes basin. It appears any discussion not considering only eradication efforts or complete denial of carps becoming established is indicative of wanting to have the carps become established.

#30 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 10:42 AM

I think I may have not been exactly clear. I didn't mean to imply that anything short of considering total eradication is indicative of wanting carp to be established. Not at all. I was just trying to think out all of the "what if" scenarios. It would be great if a fishery could put a huge dent in the population.

Clearly, fisheries management and regulation isn't always successful (the too little, too late problem). I'm just concerned that there is the potential for pressure to manage for a carp fishery. True, some trout populations are maintained by stocking; others aren't. That isn't quite my point. The entire trout fishery, stocked or not, is regulated in part to help support the fishing/vacation industries. These industries can be particulary important to small towns near national parks, say. The trout fishery supports not only guides and angling shops, but hotels, restaurants, car rental agencies, and all of the industries that support those (in a manner, even down to subcontractors who do road repair, etc.)

The reason cited for not closing the Chicago Canal was economic. Too much money depends on the canal. The potential for the same reasoning could exist for a carp fishery in the future. There will be people who's livlihoods will be based on the carp fishery, both from an industrial/commercial standpoint and a recreational/retail standpoint.

Anyway, I'm not saying I'm against a commercial fishery. Just trying to think out all of the potential issues that could go along with any management strategy.

Do you mean like protections for bluefin tune, striped bass and cod? Regulations there; too little, too late.

I think the carp stocks would be suppressed by harvesting activity, even if take is regulated. Hopefully carp stocks would be suppressed enough to limit ecological damage.

The trout populations are a bit different, in that some stocks must be maintained by stocking. At some point in future, political winds might change causing a lack of support for stocking / regulations and the trout stocks could be allowed to fail or at least drop to levels of minimal impact on the rest of the system.

I must state I am not a proponent of establishing bighead and/or silver carps into the Great Lakes basin. It appears any discussion not considering only eradication efforts or complete denial of carps becoming established is indicative of wanting to have the carps become established.



#31 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 11:08 AM

Anyway, I'm not saying I'm against a commercial fishery. Just trying to think out all of the potential issues that could go along with any management strategy.


I'm concerned about bi-catch as well. And the public's perception that exotic species just add humans benefit to otherwise "useless" ecosystems. And I'm sure the shipping industry is a huge proponent of the newly emerging fishery as well, fwiw.

I'm in the same boat as Laura... I don't think any of this is a good thing where the best strategy is to just ignore it, I'm not staunchly opposed to any mechanism for managing this problem now that it's out of the bag, I'm the last person in line to say anything is ever black and white. Initially, I thought it was a great idea. But the more I thought about it, the more I think that we all should be cautious about how this rolls out.

Todd

#32 Guest_jase_*

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 12:35 PM

I know after bass fishing tournaments (Tablerock lake)here there is a high mortality rate for the released bass....why not have more non-native tournaments for spearfishing of carp (and polefishing) in the midwest and cichlid tournaments in southern Florida (for Mayans,Oscars,Tilapia etc). We introduced these fish ....we should be the ones to get rid of them!


While I have thought that a human food market could prove to be an interesting solution, I am concerned that it could lead to actually protecting a carp fishery in the future. If a market gets well established, then it would be worth $XXX million per year, and would have people lobbying to save it if we were able to make any real reduction in carp population. Sort of like how non-native trout populations are protected because of the income they bring to a region.


I agree with Laura. If there's nothing we can do to stop the carp, then there's no harm in getting as much use out of them as possible (and maybe making a slight dent in the population in the process). BUT... getting a sport or commercial fishery established might mean that any future breakthroughs in carp control (carp-specific viruses, other bio controls, etc.) would face serious opposition.

Just check out the Catch And Release Professional (CARP) website: http://www.carptourn...ews/?page_id=98 and the related American Carp Society's page on carp care: http://www.americanc..._3carpcare.html "The preservation of these ‘elder statesmen’ for other anglers to enjoy is something that we advocate, therefore we have dedicated a section of our web-site specifically to carp care so that when the fish of a lifetime is captured, it can be released and unharmed for others to enjoy".

If it somehow became possible to eradicate common carp from some waterways, there's little doubt that there would be an outcry opposing it from dedicated carp anglers.

Intersting stuff...

#33 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 12:41 PM

Yes, there will be issues of by-catch which in themselves may stress some native stocks. Also, I do not think the public perception will be that all new additions to ecosystem are not problematic, especially if there is a tangeable cost associated with the introductions and their management.

Cat-out-of-bag is what puts my mind into integrated pest management gear. Risks and cost will need to be considered to minimize degradation of the Great Lakes system we have and will have. At no point do I promote just blindly starting a fishery to manage the carps or other introduction. Process needs to be thought out and we may need to be prepared for long-term management efforts.

#34 Guest_wargreen_*

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 02:01 PM

I challenge "realistic".

It is very probable the Asian carps will colonize the Great Lakes because time is on their side when you are reliant upon "political will" and ignore the possibility of natural stream capture events.

We may need then be prepared to think realistically in terms of pest managment where eradication of the pest (Asian carps) is not likely, but cost effectively keeping abundances below some intolerable threshhold is. Examples for such management (sometimes unintentional) is abundant. Despite the high reproductive potential of most commercially harvested aquatic species (many comparable to the silver and bighead carps), it is still quite common to fish those species beyond sustainability which could easily be similar to being below some intolerable threshold.

I completely agree!

#35 Guest_wargreen_*

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 02:12 PM

I read somewhere, someone wanted to make a rendering plant to use the fish.

Putting a bounty on them like the Northern Squawfish would help.

I watch viedos of people bow fishing for them, and it looks like fun, but then some of them, just through the dieing fish back into the water. What a waste, we caught some bighead carp, I smoked them & they were good. They should eat them or send them to a rendering company.

This is what Im talking about....not making a billion dollar industry with fisheries to save the exotics....just population control. The problem is already established and like the Northern Pikeminnows (squawfish) we need to controll it, tournaments target the species (Bass,crappie,catfish) and do no major direct damage to other species. Using these non-natives as food sources and for use in rendering plants (for fish pellets for my natives) is good idea if controlled; the fish from these tournaments could be collected instead of released for food (an Ozarkan fish fry) or production (rendering plant) and not cost the states and taxpayers a single cent!

#36 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 01:43 PM

Ummm... Pikeminnows? Really?

Todd

#37 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 06:04 PM

Ummm... Pikeminnows? Really?

Todd

Please allow me to echo Todd -- huh what?

#38 Guest_wargreen_*

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 03:41 AM

Please allow me to echo Todd -- huh what?



I hope this cut and paste helps. Invasives like Carp or Mayan cichlids either eat eggs or take prime breeding areas away from natives (not to mention the dent they put in the food supply), just like the Northern Pikeminnow does in the Northwest due to unnatural damning.

Northern pikeminnow (Ptychocheilus oregonensis)



If you fish in Southern BC frequently for salmon , trout or other coarse species in the summer months, then most likely you have encountered this species. Northern pikeminnow are not specifically targeted by BC anglers due to their poor eating quality. They are regarded as pests because they compete indirectly with salmon anglers by feeding on salmon fry and eggs. However, this native species has a fascinating life history and plays an important ecological role in watersheds of the Pacific Northwest. They can grow to a very large size, and their tremendous fighting power on light tackle can provide excellent sportfishing, especially for children.

Edited by wargreen, 12 February 2010 - 03:47 AM.


#39 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 11:08 AM

I thought we were over that sort of nonsense. Some of the more southerly pikeminnows were nearly destroyed due to elimination campaigns to protect trout from these "trash fish". Similar efforts have been conducted in the east against gar and bowfin. Their impacts on game fish are understudied and almost certainly overstated.

#40 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 11:27 AM

Let alone the trophic cascades that occur in their absence.

Todd




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