... then I'll know that they're not eating them for nutrition, but for fun.
How to breed orange throated darters? (Etheostoma spectabile)
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, Jul 12 2010 02:48 PM
74 replies to this topic
#61
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 04 October 2010 - 04:36 PM
If I fed you all the bread and spaghetti you could possibly eat for several months, and occasionally tossed you a pea or greenbean, would eating the pea or greenbean be "just for fun" ? Most animals "know" at some level they need to eat a variety of different foods to get complete nutrition. Yes, hobbyist breeders usually have extra tanks around for raising fry, or give away the fry to friends who want to raise them.
#62
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Posted 04 October 2010 - 08:32 PM
But I do feed them other food. There are snails, and flakes, and pellets. They just don't eat them.
#63
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Posted 05 October 2010 - 10:50 AM
I guess they eat whatever their instinct tells them to eat, with some modification for learning to eat new foods. It's always been mysterious to me how some fish are instantaneously adaptable to unnatural foods (bluehead & creek chubs, rosyside dace, satinfin shiner), others slowly adapt (darters, stoneroller, flier, bluespotted sun, mudminnow), and some just never adapt even after many generations in captivity (guess who). Makes me wonder what could be the advantage to a fish NOT being an adventurous eater? I dont think its just nutritional specialization, nor just a matter of the new food getting their attention, because many fish will grab and chew a new food, then blow it out. There's some trigger that tells them "swallow" or "spit" that has to be overcome in adapting to new food.
But I do feed them other food. There are snails, and flakes, and pellets. They just don't eat them.
#64
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Posted 05 October 2010 - 11:26 AM
When there are just flakes, pellets, and snails in the tank, the Etheostoma spectabile don't starve. They'll eat the flakes if that's all there is. But when grated cocktail shrimp is available, they'll positively gorge themselves. They'll eat so much that their bellies will bulge and they'll be forced to spit up that lasts bit of shrimp that they just ate.
That's why I'm feeding them the cocktail shrimp; I want the darters to be so full that they won't be tempted to go after the fry. This is the same rationale that I use when feeding my adult swordtails. I feed the adults two or three times a day, and they don't eat any of their young. Zero. Even when the young are small enough to be easily swallowed, the adults show no interest if their bellies are full. Because this was successful with swordtails, I'm applying the same technique to the darters now. We'll get results within the next month. If there still aren't any young, then that means that it's not working.
My fear is that, because these darters are wild caught, their wild lifestyle instilled in them the desire to hunt and kill. That's a big problem a lot of times with wild animals. They're used to their food running away, crunching, and bleeding. Flake food lacks that killing element, and just isn't as attractive to wild caught fish. So if the darters continue to eat the baby swordtails, then my reasoning is that they're doing it because they feel the need to hunt and kill. And that killer instinct isn't compatible with my tank setup, and I'd have to find a new home for the darters. But I really doubt that that's going to happen. I think that, as time goes on, the darters will get fatter and fatter and less and less vicious. Fat creatures who receive frequent feedings often lose their desire to hunt.
That's why I'm feeding them the cocktail shrimp; I want the darters to be so full that they won't be tempted to go after the fry. This is the same rationale that I use when feeding my adult swordtails. I feed the adults two or three times a day, and they don't eat any of their young. Zero. Even when the young are small enough to be easily swallowed, the adults show no interest if their bellies are full. Because this was successful with swordtails, I'm applying the same technique to the darters now. We'll get results within the next month. If there still aren't any young, then that means that it's not working.
My fear is that, because these darters are wild caught, their wild lifestyle instilled in them the desire to hunt and kill. That's a big problem a lot of times with wild animals. They're used to their food running away, crunching, and bleeding. Flake food lacks that killing element, and just isn't as attractive to wild caught fish. So if the darters continue to eat the baby swordtails, then my reasoning is that they're doing it because they feel the need to hunt and kill. And that killer instinct isn't compatible with my tank setup, and I'd have to find a new home for the darters. But I really doubt that that's going to happen. I think that, as time goes on, the darters will get fatter and fatter and less and less vicious. Fat creatures who receive frequent feedings often lose their desire to hunt.
Edited by EricaWieser, 05 October 2010 - 11:27 AM.
#65
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Posted 05 October 2010 - 01:04 PM
I am wishing you luck, but i wouldn't hold my breath. Some fish seem to have an instinctual urge to keep eating so long as what they perceive as appropriate food is available. It may work for the swordtails, but doesn't seem to work for everything - case in point; as a teen I had an angelfish that often would keep eating flakes until the point of intestinal prolapse. I am quite certain she would have continued to eat to the point of permanent damage if I had not backed off on the food.
I don't know about that - wild-caught shiners go pretty crazy about flake food. It may just depend on the species of fish. It could be that darters instinctually eat all the darter-approved food that comes downstream at them.
... That's a big problem a lot of times with wild animals. They're used to their food running away, crunching, and bleeding. Flake food lacks that killing element, and just isn't as attractive to wild caught fish. .
I don't know about that - wild-caught shiners go pretty crazy about flake food. It may just depend on the species of fish. It could be that darters instinctually eat all the darter-approved food that comes downstream at them.
#66
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 05 October 2010 - 01:30 PM
Would I be overstating to say that shiners are 'drift feeders' eating whatever comes down steam? And that darters are natural hunters, searching the nooks and crannies to find little bits of stuff to eat?
If not, then maybe we are talking about a more hard wired behaviour... not to venture too far from the topic, but many a house cat will kill stuff that crawls away, just becasue stuff is not supposed to be able to get away... in their small cat brains.
If not, then maybe we are talking about a more hard wired behaviour... not to venture too far from the topic, but many a house cat will kill stuff that crawls away, just becasue stuff is not supposed to be able to get away... in their small cat brains.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#67
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Posted 05 October 2010 - 04:20 PM
Even the most gluttonous drift-feeding shiners, dace and chubs have well-tuned selectivity for swallowing certain things and spitting out others. Sure, they grab at whatever is drifting, but if you're at the tail end of a large school of minnows then a LOT of what drifts into your face is NOT stuff you want to swallow.
I hate to insult my beloved darters by comparing them to domestic cats, but it's probably true that in many fish, like cats, the hunting and killing instinct keeps going long after the stomach says "enough!" If you've ever tried putting loads of daphnia in a tank to feed fish while you're gone, you've probably seen how certain fish will just kill all the daphnia that they cant immediately eat.
But Erica may be right that once her darters get fat enough (and older) they might not chase the babies quite so enthuiastically, and some might live and grow. BTW Erica - are you sure there's actually darter eggs developing and hatching in the tank? They might be getting eaten or failing to develop for other reasons before hatching. It's also possible your swordtails are eating baby darters.
I hate to insult my beloved darters by comparing them to domestic cats, but it's probably true that in many fish, like cats, the hunting and killing instinct keeps going long after the stomach says "enough!" If you've ever tried putting loads of daphnia in a tank to feed fish while you're gone, you've probably seen how certain fish will just kill all the daphnia that they cant immediately eat.
But Erica may be right that once her darters get fat enough (and older) they might not chase the babies quite so enthuiastically, and some might live and grow. BTW Erica - are you sure there's actually darter eggs developing and hatching in the tank? They might be getting eaten or failing to develop for other reasons before hatching. It's also possible your swordtails are eating baby darters.
#68
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Posted 05 October 2010 - 07:31 PM
The swordtails are super tame. They're my babies. I raised 'em myself. Wouldn't hurt a fly.BTW Erica - are you sure there's actually darter eggs developing and hatching in the tank? They might be getting eaten or failing to develop for other reasons before hatching. It's also possible your swordtails are eating baby darters.
Before the darters were introduced, the one week old fry used to swim next to the full grown swordtails in the water column, unharmed.
As to the darter eggs failing to develop before hatching, I don't really see why they'd do that. I've got areas of pure gravel, pure clay, and mixtures in between. At least one of those substrates has got to be suitable for the development of the eggs.
The four shrimp in the tank do eat fish eggs, but Etheostoma spectabile eggs are buried under the substrate, so they'd be safe from shrimpy claws.
Ooooh. There are leeches in the tank, which live under the substrate. I don't know if leeches hunt fish eggs or not. Probably not all of them. Hmm.
I think that up until now, the darters have been eating their own young. If they laid eggs, that is. *shrugs* It's just a huge red flag to me that there aren't any swordtail babies. I mean, livebearer fry are born at a much much larger size than egg layer fry. If the huge livebearer fry are disappearing (and they're only susceptible to predation for the first week of their life), then that means that darter fry (which would be that size for a month or more) wouldn't stand a chance. It's possible the darters weren't laying any eggs. That's okay. That's actually fine with me. I just want the baby swordtails to come back, and then all will be right with the tank. Only then will the darter fry even stand a chance.
#69
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 06 October 2010 - 04:00 PM
...(and they're only susceptible to predation for the first week of their life)
I'm not sure that I agree with this statement... I have seen (often) darters attack, kill and eat feeder shrimp that are nearly 1/2 there size...
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#70
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Posted 07 October 2010 - 09:02 AM
oh greatI'm not sure that I agree with this statement... I have seen (often) darters attack, kill and eat feeder shrimp that are nearly 1/2 there size...
#71
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Posted 07 October 2010 - 09:26 AM
oh great
I've seen rainbows eat freshly dead minnnows that size atleast if they're hungry.
#72
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Posted 08 October 2010 - 09:29 AM
I miss my baby swordtails. These darters won't breed, nor will they let anyone else breed.
I know I said I'd give them until November, but it'll probably be too cold to ship them by then.
Link to their sale: http://forum.nanfa.o...oma-spectabile/
I know I said I'd give them until November, but it'll probably be too cold to ship them by then.
Link to their sale: http://forum.nanfa.o...oma-spectabile/
#73
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Posted 09 October 2010 - 05:43 PM
.I miss my baby swordtails. These darters won't breed, nor will they let anyone else breed.
I know I said I'd give them until November, but it'll probably be too cold to ship them by then.
Link to their sale: http://forum.nanfa.o...oma-spectabile/
They're going to Schambers. I'm glad. I have enjoyed keeping these darters, but I think that I am more comfortable with fish that spawn in the tank that they live in. These darters would probably breed best in captivity if they were in one of those setups where they spawned and then removed from the tank, so they couldn't possibly eat their fry.
#74
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 02:18 PM
Update:
Catching darters is ridiculously difficult with an opaque fish net. It is, however, equally ridiculously easy to do with a clear plastic cup. I set a clear cup, the ones that came with the bettas I've purchased over the years, on top of a darter resting on the substrate. Then I scooped under the sitting darter using the flat lid to the cup and both the darter and a centimeter of substrate were successfully captured. This worked even better with a lid that was slightly larger than the cup.
Just thought I'd share.
Catching darters is ridiculously difficult with an opaque fish net. It is, however, equally ridiculously easy to do with a clear plastic cup. I set a clear cup, the ones that came with the bettas I've purchased over the years, on top of a darter resting on the substrate. Then I scooped under the sitting darter using the flat lid to the cup and both the darter and a centimeter of substrate were successfully captured. This worked even better with a lid that was slightly larger than the cup.
Just thought I'd share.
#75
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 08:34 PM
Aaah! I had to share this, I'm so excited. The darters haven't even been out of the tank a full day yet and I saw a baby swordtail! Woot! It must have been hiding in the plant for its liiiife. Now it's safe. Awww.
Edit: Maybe that means that the recent shrimp-feeding regimen filled the darters up enough to allow this latest batch of swordtail fry to survive. I'm still okay with sending the darters away, though. Grating the frozen shrimp every day twice a day was really hard on my fingers.
Edit: Maybe that means that the recent shrimp-feeding regimen filled the darters up enough to allow this latest batch of swordtail fry to survive. I'm still okay with sending the darters away, though. Grating the frozen shrimp every day twice a day was really hard on my fingers.
Edited by EricaWieser, 10 October 2010 - 08:37 PM.
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