Elassoma Gilberti

This is an interesting topic. I was reading an article in the latest issue of National Geographic about a Russian project over the last 50 years to domesticate the silver fox through through selective breeding. The theory is that domestication is based in genetics. The fun part is that they now have foxes that are every bit as gentle and playful as labrador retrievers.

Harry Knaub

This particular Russian experiment breed for flight distance. It turns out the same genes involved in flight distance also code for maturity in many respects. So just by breeding for low flight distance also entails that canines never mature beyond those of puppies in some ways. This refutes the traditional notion that many of the domestic traits in dogs today was the result of refinements over many years of domestication. As most of these domestication traits are the result of breeding for a single trait.

You can not depend on the same connections between traits in other species. What gerald relayed from old timers about cichlids indicates possibly the opposite effect in cichlids. Where low flight distance results in more aggressive behavior, rather than less. Gene interactions are not are not that consistent across species, and depends heavily on the traits being optimized for the survival of a given species in the natural environment. For fish what is feared wants to eat you and what is not feared is food. Hence losing the fear of being eaten results in perusing what is not feared for food.

This may not be the case for gilberti, as their food does not generally consist of other fish. Though they are still predators there is no reason, unlike many predatory fish, for them to suddenly become overly aggressive to other fish they do not fear, as these fish have never been a viable food source to them.

I wish my camera could capture it, but it doesn't seem to be able to. One of my females --who is full of eggs-- has blue edged fins.

Also, in reply to the domestication thing, I definitely think fish get domesticated. I used to have both wild and many-generation-tank-bred swordtails in the same tank, and they acted very differently even though they were technically the same species.
I also think that how much a fish gets stared at when growing up affects how it reacts the next time it gets stared at. I used to basically hand raise my swordtail fry and stare at them constantly. They didn't care if my face was in front of the tank or not because they were used to it. I was the food bringer; they weren't scared of me. But when I would get fish from other people, even the same strain, they were always more afraid of the giant head on the other side of the glass. There has always been a huge difference, to me at least, in the fish I raise in my tanks versus the fish I got from a pet store.

Edited by EricaWieser, 19 February 2011 - 01:40 PM.

Ive never seen blue fin edging on a female gilberti, but I've seen older females of other fish, especially cichlids, tend to get male-like colors, fin extensions, nuchal hump, etc. Five-year old rainbow shiners there's hardly any color difference between the sexes.

Regarding gilberti swimming against the front glass, No, mine don't do that unless I'm trying to net them. But I use sponge or bubble-type box filters (or no filters) so my tanks have hardly any current. The behavior of yours may be a response to current.

I wish my camera could capture it, but it doesn't seem to be able to. One of my females --who is full of eggs-- has blue edged fins.

Ive never seen blue fin edging on a female gilberti, but I've seen older females of other fish, especially cichlids, tend to get male-like colors, fin extensions, nuchal hump, etc. Five-year old rainbow shiners there's hardly any color difference between the sexes.

Regarding gilberti swimming against the front glass, No, mine don't do that unless I'm trying to net them. But I use sponge or bubble-type box filters (or no filters) so my tanks have hardly any current. The behavior of yours may be a response to current.

She is an old one, the oldest and biggest of all of the females. She actually defends her own territory under the rock and chases away other females who try to hang out near her. Her fin edges only turn blue when she's chasing another female away from her spot.

I think you're right about the current. That little one was playing in a region of tiny current, and the bigger females play in the area where there is slightly more current closer to the outlet. A video I took December 20th shows this adult female playing in the current:


which is exactly what the small fish was doing in the previous video, but it was filmed from the front instead of from the side.

Edited by EricaWieser, 19 February 2011 - 02:47 PM.

Does she still still spawn and/or act receptive to males? I'm wondering if male-like color and behavior has something to do with declining estrogen.

She is an old one, the oldest and biggest of all of the females. She actually defends her own territory under the rock and chases away other females who try to hang out near her. Her fin edges only turn blue when she's chasing another female away from her spot.

Does she still still spawn and/or act receptive to males? I'm wondering if male-like color and behavior has something to do with declining estrogen.

I'll keep an eye on her and see how she interacts with males in the future. She's full of eggs; you can see them in her. Photo:
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Here is a video of her defending her territory inside the anubias against an invading female. The video quality isn't so great (the water is cloudy because I just dumped microworm substrate in. The babies eat it) but if you look closely, you can see her dorsal fin is edged in blue. Her body is also much darker than the other females' ever get.

Edited by EricaWieser, 19 February 2011 - 09:27 PM.

Also, I don't think I've ever actually posted video of a male chasing a female out of his territory, so here's some footage:

And a current photo so you can see where this all is happening in relation to the rest of the tank:
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Edited by EricaWieser, 19 February 2011 - 09:52 PM.

On a few of your videos I seen a puff of sediment burst from the bottom. Is that clams or what doing that?

On a few of your videos I seen a puff of sediment burst from the bottom. Is that clams or what doing that?

See post #295 of this topic for photos. They're Corbicula clams.

I remember seeing the pics, and some in a video I believe was yours, but I did not see the when the kicked up the sediment. Was just curious if that is what was kicking the sediment up in the videos. I guess I got my answer.

Edited by mywan, 20 February 2011 - 11:52 AM.

Does she still still spawn and/or act receptive to males? I'm wondering if male-like color and behavior has something to do with declining estrogen.

I saw her earlier today hanging out in the males' territory as they danced at her. I can't confirm that they spawned because they do that deep in the plants where I can't see them, but she's definitely not an old miser woman who stays in her anubias and never goes out to visit anyone.

Also, update: I bought some Cabomba caroliniana and rearranged the tank a bit. Photos once it settles

Before: http://gallery.nanfa...l size.jpg.html
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After: http://gallery.nanfa...l size.jpg.html
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Here's some stuff that I'm not sure if I've documented or not. Maybe this will serve as a good guide to people wanting to set up an Elassoma gilberti tank.

Tank size and inhabitants: 55 gallons, 4 mature males, about a half dozen to a dozen females, perhaps two to three dozen fry and juveniles at this point. (Those are just vague estimates. I can't really tell the females apart and I can't really count all the fry.)

Plant species: Ceratophyllum demersum (wrapped around a rectangle of half inch diameter potable PVC tube joined into a frame with L joints. The PVC was $5-ish for 10 feet at Home Depot, the L joints $0.27 cents each), myriophyllum, bacopa monnieri, anubias nana, and now cabomba caroliniana. Oh and a floating plant thing I haven't identified yet.

My light: Lithonia Lighting All Weather 4 Ft. 2 Light T8 Fluorescent Unit Shop light. Home Depot Model # 1242ZG RE, Internet # 202052422, Store SKU # 390063. Link: http://www.homedepot...catalogId=10053 Cost: $19.97 online. Length: 4 feet. Bulbs: Two 700-lumen 6000 K bulbs purchased for a total of $8.

My substrate: Special Kitty brand litter from Walmart.
Substrate analysis by Jamie Johnson: http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html (also read the Cation Exchange Coefficient section).

Filter: Aquaclear™ power filter, either a 50 or 70 gallon rating, I forget. I took the plastic top cover off and added a sea sponge to the filter box. I also removed the activated carbon. And lastly I added a sea sponge to the intake tube's end.

Method of harvesting microworms: http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/microworms.htm (lay a coffee filter on top of the culture media, scoop)
Video of young hunting microworms: youtube.com/watch?v=SMJLsihGZiM

Quote from wikipedia: "Stomach contents of 46 individual banded pygmy sunfish (26 of which were spawning adults) collected at Mound, Louisiana were examined for food identification by Barney and Anson. The main food identified at Mound included insect larvae (mostly from the family Chironomidae), small crustaceans and snail eggs. The crustaceans and snail eggs combined constituted the majority of the content. Next in quantity was the insect larva. It is also noted that minute amounts of algal spores were ingested by these fish. It is most likely that these algal blooms were taken in accidentally with other prey. Lastly, no other fish species or banded pygmy sunfish larva were found in the stomach contents."

Main food for Elassoma gilberti: California blackworms that live in the substrate.

Snail species: Physa fontinalis, Lymnaea, ramshorn, and assassin snail (Clea/Anentome helena).

Other: corbicula clams.

And I don't think these water parameters are very critical. The Elassoma gilberti seem to be able to thrive in a wide variety of waters. But anyway this is what my tank parameters are:
pH: 8.0
Nitrate: 0 ppm (nowhere even close to the 5 ppm color)
GH: 17 to 22 degrees of hardness

Edited by EricaWieser, 22 February 2011 - 11:12 AM.

So, I've been trying for a while to get some Dario dario because I think that a dither fish of the same size as the Elassoma gilberti would encourage it that it is safe to be out in the open. I can't find any dario dario for a reasonable price so, because they're a dollar each, I'm going to try neon tetras. They're small, they dart around in the open, they probably won't eat the Elassoma gilberti fry (because they are hidden in the plants) or the blackworms (they are all the way down on the bottom of the tank, and they startle at fast movements) and they're an experiment. The only downside is my pH is 8 and the hardness is around 20 degrees of hardness. So... they're probably going to die. But if it works it will be really cool.

So... they're probably going to die.

Yup, they're not too happy. It's official-- neon tetras do not like hard water, no matter how slowly they're adjusted to it.

Dwarf cichlid breeders tend to avoid tetras as dithers. They will eat fry and are too quick to be defended against. With the complete lack of maternal care in Elassoma I suspect all but the most reclusive fry would get it. Pencilfish are often recommended, but they too are a soft water species. A native topwater species might work well like blackstripe or golden topminnows. Bluefin killifish or dwarf livebearers would also probably work.

Dwarf cichlid breeders tend to avoid tetras as dithers. They will eat fry and are too quick to be defended against. With the complete lack of maternal care in Elassoma I suspect all but the most reclusive fry would get it.

Hmm. I'm looking at the tank right now and I'm trying to decide whether or not to remove them. They don't go into the plants, which is where the fry are. And there was this really cute moment earlier where the male who was sent to me as a juvenile and is now big, well, he was swimming back and forth on the front glass in the current and the neon tetras were following him around, encouraging him to be out in the open. It happened twice, but both times I approached the glass he fled deep into the plants to avoid a picture. I did a couple pictures of the neon tetras with the Elassoma gilberti juveniles. They're about the same size, with the tetras being a tad bigger. The full grown Elassoma are about twice the size as the tetras.

If it weren't for the cute moment (and for Andrew being completely smitten with them), I'd remove them. But I don't think they're doing any harm. Who knows, the water could still be too hard for them and they could all die overnight. *shrugs*

Edit: Oh, also, when the male is guarding eggs, he chases other fish away from them. So the neon tetras won't have the chance to eat the fry when they're eggs. And the fry hide as deep in the shadows as they can once they hatch.

Edited by EricaWieser, 23 February 2011 - 12:10 AM.

Also, giant leech. It's definitely a recurring problem; when I set up this tank I took out all of the substrate and cleaned the plants before putting them in. This leech either came with the blackworms or came on the plants, but it's not going anywhere no matter how many times I change the tank. That's it, I'm going saltwater with my next tank.

Edited by EricaWieser, 23 February 2011 - 12:24 AM.