Elassoma Gilberti

With salt you're likely to get bristle worms which make any kind of leech look like your pet guinea pig.

Yup, they're not too happy. It's official-- neon tetras do not like hard water, no matter how slowly they're adjusted to it.

The drip acclimation worked! It's the morning after they were introduced and every single one survived Also, the Elassoma gilberti have never been this visible before.

With salt you're likely to get bristle worms which make any kind of leech look like your pet guinea pig.

ew. Hmm. This is a quandry.

Some fish that evolved in ultra-soft water have very high affinity for calcium uptake. When placed in hard water with abundant Ca, they may or may not be able to slow down Ca uptake, depending on species. For those that are stuck with Ca-uptake on "high" setting, Ca deposits can gradually damage their organs. It may just make them unable to breed, or it can kill them if the kidney or liver gets calcified. You wont see any obvious symptoms for awhile.

"GH: 17 to 22 degrees of hardness" -- That's higher than Lake Tanganyika, which is around 12 dGH.

The drip acclimation worked! It's the morning after they were introduced and every single one survived

Edited by gerald, 23 February 2011 - 12:24 PM.

You wont see any obvious symptoms for awhile.

I'm just glad they survived the night. The last time I tried neon tetras, I only acclimated for about an hour, and they were all dead within six. And that time I had 20 of them.

And yup, the water is really, extremely hard. I think it's the kitty litter, since my tap water's only 7 dH or so .

Edited by EricaWieser, 23 February 2011 - 12:27 PM.

Also, the neon tetras don't seem to be able to eat the blackworms. They move too twitchily, startling the blackworms, who hide before they can be seen. I don't think the neons have even noticed that there are blackworms in there.

Edited by EricaWieser, 23 February 2011 - 12:35 PM.

When I moved the ceratophyllum around recently and added cabomba, it displaced a few of the males from their territories. They've taken to swimming occasionally on the front glass with the neon tetras. Two of the males were playing on the glass near one another without aggression.
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Current video of tank:

flash versus no flash:
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Edited by EricaWieser, 24 February 2011 - 11:23 PM.

Update:
The blackworm population has been obliterated. I can't 100% prove that this is the cause, but the timing directly correlates with the appearance of a six inch long brown leech. My bet is that the leech ate them. I killed the leech, but I doubt that was the last one.

The introduction of the neon tetras is still going well. Again, I don't think they eat blackworms or fry. I dropped a fry from the 10 gallon tank (there are still some in there) on top of the neon tetras' heads, and they didn't notice it. They also, for the most part, seem to ignore the substrate, which is not what they'd do if they ate blackworms.

When I rearranged the tank recently to introduce cabomba, I disturbed some of the males' territories. Here is a video of them peacefully reestablishing a boundary line between their two territories. The male on the right stole the male on the left's myriophyllum territory, so he (he's smaller and had to deal with it) took the female's territory of the anubias rock.



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Edited by EricaWieser, 28 February 2011 - 01:20 AM.

Also, giant leech. It's definitely a recurring problem; when I set up this tank I took out all of the substrate and cleaned the plants before putting them in. This leech either came with the blackworms or came on the plants, but it's not going anywhere no matter how many times I change the tank. That's it, I'm going saltwater with my next tank.

When I used to get blackworms, I always had little leeches in with them I had to fish out. It's been a few years since I've ordered blackworms maybe they're cleaner now. I cant say.

I did some searching and many leeches are in predators of blackworms.
http://blogs.thatpet...ium-scavengers/

My own curiosity and questions from others led me to take a closer look. Upon doing so, I was amazed to see the leeches sucking down the blackworms like spaghetti!

However, these probably are not technically leaches but a species of flatworm.
http://forum.nanfa.o...-my-blackworms/

This also explains the strangish look of the "leeches" in your pictures. Not like any leech I have seen, even in the video with the leech like movements. Even if they are still leeches many leech species are not bloodsuckers but predators, as bloodsucking evolved from predation. Either detritivores or worm feeders. Not a problem for your fish either way. As most peoples blackworms would never live that long after feeding, nor the supposed leeches go that long without also being eat by the fish, and being predators do not pose any concern for the fish, it is not generally an issue. It looks like the worst thing you have to worry about is losing your blackworms. Shame, I loved the looks of your blackworms in the video.

So do not give up on blackworms. If you place the new blackworms in a shallow petri like dish and observe with a magnifying glass you should be able to separate any leech/flatworm before introduction to the tank. Even if some do get in your blackworms do fine until the leech/flatworm got big enough to decimate them. Personally, I would just reach in and grab that sucker, leech or not it is harmless to you and your fish. But by whatever means just remove them before they get that large. The opportunity did present itself before the blackworms were decimated.

these probably are not technically leaches but a species of flatworm....

...If you place the new blackworms in a shallow petri like dish and observe with a magnifying glass you should be able to separate any leech/flatworm before introduction to the tank. Even if some do get in your blackworms do fine until the leech/flatworm got big enough to decimate them. Personally, I would just reach in and grab that sucker, leech or not it is harmless to you and your fish. But by whatever means just remove them before they get that large. The opportunity did present itself before the blackworms were decimated.

They are leeches. They have suckers on their bottoms, which flatworms don't.

And I did comb through the blackworms when they were first added. I think the plants are the culprits; a single egg on the plant tissue can hatch and spawn a population of leeches. These are the same plants from back when the entire tank was infested with leeches. (The leeches have been present in my tank for over a year now. They are actually the reason why I discovered native fish; I bought darters with the hopes that they would eat all the leeches. Then I joined NANFA to learn how to care for the darters and found pygmy sunfish, and I'd been looking for a really small colorful fish for a long time.)

I tried building my own leech trap ( http://forum.nanfa.o...ollect-leeches/ ) but I think I got the one way opening wrong, so I'm going to see if there are any bristleworm traps for sale at RMS aquaculture (a giant warehouse style fish store) when I'm in the area for an OCA meeting this Friday. I will bait the trap and see what it catches. This whole thing is bothering me a bunch. I want my blackworm population to be sustainable so the Elassoma gilberti have a constant food source.

Does anyone know of any other constant food source that would work aside from blackworms?

Edited by EricaWieser, 28 February 2011 - 10:59 AM.

The Elassoma gilberti are skinnier than they were a week ago. I don't like it that there aren't any blackworms left. But I feel like if I buy more, they'll just get eaten by the leeches. It's a bad situation and I don't know what to do about it. The way things are going, the fish will continue to get skinnier and skinner and be unhappy and starving. They will likely begin to eat their own young. Some of them may switch to flake food, but most of them probably won't, and they'll subsist on the snail eggs, staying very skinny and unhappy.

There are a couple options:
1. The leech trap, which may or may not work. It's labor intensive either way and I don't like it because the very skinny young leeches wouldn't be caught by it. The reproductive age might be younger and smaller than the age the trap catches them, and then I would be continually catching them and they would still always be there.
2. Chemical warfare. I know that levamisole hcl would probably kill the leeches. The problem is that it would also probably kill the snails, too, whose young help feed the Elassoma. And I can't guarantee that the Elassoma gilberti would be completely unaffected by the chemicals. It might also kill all of the snails but the leeches, hidden in the substrate, might live.
3. Go with a bare bottom tank. I could put the roots of the plants in little pots and have a glass bottom. Any blackworms and/or leeches would have to be exposed at all times. That means I could see the leeches and remove them, unlike right now, when they are hidden in the substrate. The problem with this plan is that the leeches would still probably hide in the substrate of the pots.
4. Sell my plants, sell my tank, sell everything and start over. If I had the chance to start again, it's likely I could avoid a leech problem by not newly contaminating the tank. I don't know if I have the energy to set this all up again, only to break it down in two months when I move to my summer housing.
5. Sell everything and call it a wash. Admit failure and take a break from fish. I'm so tempted to do this option because it would also reduce a lot of the things I have to transport when moving to a place three states away in a few months.

So those are my options. I don't know what to do. The Elassoma don't have any blackworms to eat and they're unhappy and it's making me unhappy. I hate these leeches. I wish there was something else the Elassoma would eat.

Edited by EricaWieser, 01 March 2011 - 11:55 AM.

Also, there are officially five males in the tank now. One of the juveniles must have differentiated.

I agree with Mywan. Just net out any large leeches when you see them; I doubt you'll encounter them very often. I've been feeding blackworms for many years are rarely rarley see anything except the little gray leeches, which have never become established in my tanks. Fresh-hatched brine shrimp, grindalworms, and Moina are other good pygmy foods, but they wont survive long-term in the aquarium like blackworms.

You have gone this long without any noticeable loss of blackworms. Which means if your blackworms were being eaten by the leech before it was only after the leech reached significant size that the loss of blackworms becomes possible. The video of the leach also shows the opportunity was there to remove it, by hand, net, tongs, or whatever method suit you. It does not have to be the end of anything, and you have not failed. There is always a fox wanting in every hen house, it is just part of the process.

Leeches always gave me the heebie jeebies to but the reality is no different from a tick. I never let squeamishness trump my actions, only legitimate dangers and it is quiet safe to allow them to attach to you. If your leeches are eating blackworms they are not bloodsucking leeches, as many or most leeches are non-bloodsucking varieties. In effect most are really no different from the earth worms they are related to. Neither does it appear to be any danger or concern for your live fish.

Leeches do not eat often and can go months on a single meal. So the loss of blackworms can be an exceptionally rare event even if you do nothing. This one likely became active enough to see because it grew too large to effectively feed on the muck on the bottom of the tank. Gorging on blackworms will likely send it into hiding for awhile.

It looks like merely removing and flushing what you see will make any future such losses excessively rare, if at all. Though I would probably try raising it in another plastic tote. Nature works through loss cycles, experiencing a loss cycle is not a failure. You could have a separate cheap plastic tote to keep a more protected colony of blackworms and simply deal with the leeches you find. It would make for a quick recovery. Though I doubt it will be necessary if you simply remove the large leeches when seen.

Are there actually "muck-feeding" or detritivorous leeches? I thought all leeches were either predatory or blood-feeding.

http://www.newworlde...org/entry/Leech

In addition, some leeches are detritivores, consuming nonliving organic material.

Erpobdella punctata is one example of a detritivorous leech, and is both scavenger and predator. Bloodsucking leeches only account for about 10% of leech species. Many are not even aquatic.

It does not have to be the end of anything, and you have not failed. There is always a fox wanting in every hen house, it is just part of the process.

*nods* Okay. I will keep trying. I was looking at the Elassoma gilberti today and they really are quite beautiful. It's worth trying more if I get to have them.
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