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Elassoma Gilberti

Started by Guest_Okiimiru_* , Aug 22 2010 01:19 PM

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#541 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 03:35 PM

I put a week old guppy cull fry (from the guppies in the 10 gallon tank. It had a really messed up spine) into the bucket with the six Trichopsis pumila. I figure that a week old guppy fry represents a month old pygmy sunfish fry, since egg hatched fry are smaller than livebearer fry. Well, I checked back an hour later and it was gone. Either the guppy fry learned to fly or the Trichopsis pumila are fry eaters. Now I really don't want to put them with the Elassoma gilberti. It would be tragic if the Trichopsis pumila ate the Elassoma gilberti fry. Hmm. I wish there were more fish species available to use as dither fish with pygmy sunfish. *sighs*

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#542 Guest_Yeahson421_*

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 04:44 PM

Hmm. I wish there were more fish species available to use as dither fish with pygmy sunfish. *sighs*

Have you thought about bluefin killifish? They're small, colorfull, and I believe they're fairly mellow.

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#543 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 03:35 PM

Have you thought about bluefin killifish? They're small, colorfull, and I believe they're fairly mellow.

Their maximum size is 6 cm (2.4 inches) according to http://www.fishbase....nia-goodei.html so I was worried that they would be too large to coexist with my less than 1 inch pygmy sunfish.

Picture of pygmy sunfish size:
http://gallery.nanfa...mber 2.jpg.html
That's a full grown male.

If anyone has successfully mixed bluefin killies and pygmy sunfish, let me know. I'd be willing to give it a shot if I knew my Elassoma gilberti would survive the encounter.

Edited by EricaWieser, 09 July 2011 - 03:37 PM.

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#544 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 09 July 2011 - 10:06 PM

I've not ever seen a bluefin that big... and they are pretty calm in my experience... I do not think that they would be any threat to your Elasomma... the other option would be pygmy killifish (Leptolucania ommata) to go with your pygmy sunfish...

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#545 Guest_Drew_*

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 11:30 PM

I've had mixed results with bluefin killies. Your Ellasoma may be just big enough that it won't be a problem. Any reason you haven't tried Heterandria formosa?

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#546 Guest_MrCatfish_*

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 11:50 PM

Yeah,I second the heterandria formosa. Small and very peaceful.

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#547 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 12:40 AM

The reason I haven't added Leptolucania ommata to the tank is because my DH (degrees of hardness) is around 16. They'd not be able to reproduce and would probably die.

I haven't tried Heterandria formosa yet because they're expensive to buy online and I'm moving to North Carolina on Wednesday. I figured I'd wait until I could collect them myself if I were to get any.

So instead I've tried guppies (the white and clear ones work okay, but still scare the Elassoma gilberti a little), Neolamprologus multifasciatus (I kill them too easily, but they were good tank mates with the Elassoma giblerti, at least while they were juveniles), swordtails (the gilberti hid from them), bettas (with their large fins they immediately have dominance and inspire hiding in the gilberti), Trichopsis pumila (aggressive little snots, fry eaters too), and ... I think that's everything. I was looking for Dario dario for a while, but they're like $35 a pair before shipping on aquabid when they do come up. There are a couple micro characins, tetras and rasboras that looked promising, but they move in little darty motions that I know would freak the gilberti out. The neon tetras scared the gilberti into the plants more than other fish their size did.

What kind of fish have you all had good luck with sharing the tank with your pygmy sunfish?

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#548 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 12:44 AM

I've had mixed results with bluefin killies. Your Ellasoma may be just big enough that it won't be a problem.

The Elassoma gilberti fry and juveniles stay at less than a half inch for the first three or four months of their lives. I wouldn't want them to get eaten or scared away from food.

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#549 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 03:01 PM

Update:
Here's a pretty typical representation of what the daily life of a pygmy sunfish looks like. They're laid back, sitting on the bottom, occasionally pecking at food but mostly just chilling. This is a half inch juvenile.

That fish is probably one of the ones that I moved in May as a quarter inch fry. He/she/it has survived in a tank solely fed crushed flake food, and hopefully within a month or two it will mature enough to choose a gender. If it differentiates into a male, it'll hopefully color up and start dancing. The goal is to have a breeding population of Elassoma gilberti fed without the need for blackworms.

I'm moving on Wednesday to North Carolina, so I'm going to break down the tank and bag up all the fish. I am going to throw out my substrate and buy new kitty litter, and I think I might throw out my plants and buy new ones, too. The Cladophora algae came back. The few tiny specks of liquefied cladophora starting growing again and now it looks like I never dosed the tank at all. So I'm taking the opportunity of this move to get all new substrate and plants and start fresh, no cladophora contamination involved. (Buying that marimo ball was probably my worst fish keeping decision ever!) Anyway, hopefully the Elassoma gilberti survive the move okay. I am also considering starting a microworm culture again once I'm settled. The fish really enjoyed them, and they weren't that much of a hassle to culture.

Edited by EricaWieser, 10 July 2011 - 03:32 PM.

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#550 Guest_jetajockey_*

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 02:48 AM

What kind of fish have you all had good luck with sharing the tank with your pygmy sunfish?

I've got both least killies and pygmy killies with some and they all get along pretty well. I did catch a female e.evergladei attacking a h.formosa fry earlier tonight.

I also added in some red cherry shrimp and they've been doing fine for about 2-3 weeks so far, so I think they are pretty safe as well. I had golden topminnows in there with them briefly, and they methodically destroyed all shrimp.

I'm willing to bet that celestial pearl danios would work great as well, they are a very timid schooler. I have some outside in a tub but have not tried mixing them yet.

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#551 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 09:07 AM

Erica,
I have some thoughts about the Cladophora problem you are having. Before you set your tank up after you move, I might take the cat litter, soak it in water, then test the water with a phosphorus kit.

Or... since you'll be in NC where clay is plentiful... see if you can go out and dig some up where it is likely to not have had fertilizers or pesticides. Just stay upgradient of farm fields, pastures, manicured lawns, and road runoff...

Lastly - and I'm sure you've thought of this...be sure not to let your fish get too hot on the drive down. Midsummer and all...

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#552 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 01:30 PM

Erica,
I have some thoughts about the Cladophora problem you are having. Before you set your tank up after you move, I might take the cat litter, soak it in water, then test the water with a phosphorus kit.

Or... since you'll be in NC where clay is plentiful... see if you can go out and dig some up where it is likely to not have had fertilizers or pesticides. Just stay upgradient of farm fields, pastures, manicured lawns, and road runoff...

Lastly - and I'm sure you've thought of this...be sure not to let your fish get too hot on the drive down. Midsummer and all...

Thank you for the advice

I wish I had a phosphate test kit, because it would be nice to know what the levels were at. It could be a lot of things, phosphorus, nitrogen, but I have unfortunately dumped all of my 2 or 3 years old test kits in favor of eventually buying fresh ones after the move. They were old and crystalizing and probably weren't accurate anyway.

I have been thinking of buying a potting soil for the substrate on my next tank setup. I've tried kitty litter and know that it encourages root growth. Now I want to try something new and see if that works, too, and it if works better or worse. Do you have any suggestions for what soil brand to buy? Probably one with no fertilizers in it, I think, but other than that I don't know anything about potting soils. I'm also not sure what the procedure is on covering the soil. I left the kitty litter uncovered and that seemed to work okay, but I don't know what you're supposed to do for soil.

I'll make sure to put the fish on my lap or on the floor next to my feet (and not in the hot Uhaul truck) on the way down there so they don't overheat

.

Edited by EricaWieser, 11 July 2011 - 01:42 PM.

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#553 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 01:40 PM

I've got both least killies and pygmy killies with some and they all get along pretty well. I did catch a female e.evergladei attacking a h.formosa fry earlier tonight.

I also added in some red cherry shrimp and they've been doing fine for about 2-3 weeks so far, so I think they are pretty safe as well. I had golden topminnows in there with them briefly, and they methodically destroyed all shrimp.

I'm willing to bet that celestial pearl danios would work great as well, they are a very timid schooler. I have some outside in a tub but have not tried mixing them yet.

I avoid shrimp because they've known to eat the occasional egg and fry. They also ate all my microworms back when I was feeding the Elassoma those. After removing the shrimp, the microworms would stay on the bottom all day and wiggle, the perfect continous fry food.

The least killies (Heterandria formosa, right?) I just might have to try now, since the pygmy sunfish might eat some of the fry. That would be a good thing in my opinion; an extra food source for the E. gilberti that doesn't cost me any effort.

Did the golden topminnows, apart from being shrimp killers, give you any other problems? Are they fry eaters and did they bother the pygmy sunfish?

I'll keep an eye out for celestial pearl danios. With a maximum size of an inch they'd be a good size match for pygmy sunfish. They appear to be $8 each before shipping cost, though. Can you try mixing yours and tell us what happens? I would be worried they are egg eaters because the zebra danios I had were notorous for that.

Edited by EricaWieser, 11 July 2011 - 01:50 PM.

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#554 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 01:47 PM

I have been thinking of buying a potting soil for the substrate on my next tank setup. I've tried kitty litter and know that it encourages root growth. Now I want to try something new and see if that works, too, and it if works better or worse. Do you have any suggestions for what soil brand to buy? Probably one with no fertilizers in it, I think, but other than that I don't know anything about potting soils. I'm also not sure what the procedure is on covering the soil. I left the kitty litter uncovered and that seemed to work okay, but I don't know what you're supposed to do for soil.

I've had mixed results using bagged topsoil. You never know where it came from or what the nutrient concentration is. Really, in your area I would use good 'ol NC topsoil and cover with a half inch or so of fine gravel (you don't really need to cover it but it helps keep the water clear). If the soil you find is mostly clay (bright orange), I'd also mix in some dried tree leaves for organic material before topping off with the gravel. I've had excellent results using GA clay and pecan leaves.

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#555 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 01:52 PM

I've had mixed results using bagged topsoil. You never know where it came from or what the nutrient concentration is. Really, in your area I would use good 'ol NC topsoil and cover with a half inch or so of fine gravel (you don't really need to cover it but it helps keep the water clear). If the soil you find is mostly clay (bright orange), I'd also mix in some dried tree leaves for organic material before topping off with the gravel. I've had excellent results using GA clay and pecan leaves.

The problem is I still won't have any place to dig. I'm moving from dormitory to apartment, with no back yard in either place. That's why I have to go with the bagged stuff.

Edited by EricaWieser, 11 July 2011 - 01:53 PM.

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#556 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 01:57 PM

The problem is I still won't have any place to dig. I'm moving from dormitory to apartment, with no back yard in either place. That's why I have to go with the bagged stuff.

Gerald... do you think you could hook Erica up with some native topsoil? :wink:

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#557 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 02:05 PM

Gerald... do you think you could hook Erica up with some native topsoil?

Oh gosh, you don't have to do that. I'm fine. I was thinking of going with a groundcover plant like glossostigma elatinoides, anyway, so I won't even be able to see the substrate and as long as the roots are happy (and I won't have any colonizing spores of cladophora this time), it won't matter what it is.

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#558 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 11 July 2011 - 03:39 PM

Really, if you are moving to the south, you gotta stop 'buying stuff' for this hobby... you gotta get out there and experience stuff... stop with the buying danios (whatever they are)... and do not buy dirt... I mean really, bottled water and bagged dirt and buying fish from halfway around the planet... y'all are makin' me crazy...

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#559 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 04:44 PM

You'll be in Winston-Salem which has clay soils everywhere. Just look for a recent forest clearcut along any roadside (NOT hard to find) and grab a couple quarts of soil. Also your tap water will be SOFT - probably 2-3 dGH, from the Yadkin River. Most city water system here use phosphate corrosion-inhibitors, so yes you'll have phosphate too. The Marimo balls might not be the source of your Cladophora infestation. Good chance you got a different Cladophora from some unknown source. Since you're driving and weight is not a problem, transport the fish in a LARGE volume of water in a styro box or cooler for thermal stability. Aquarium Center in Kernersville is (or was) a good shop nearby for fish & supplies.

I would not put ANY Fundulus killie with Elassoma, and IME even bluefins and rainwaters can be too aggressive and predatory on fry.
Leptolucania would be safer and should do fine in your NC water, if you can get some. NC is not in their range.

The shrimp you had befire were ghost/glass/grass shrimp right? Cherry shrimp are not as carnivorous as those.

If you can get to Garner (near Raleigh) on Aug 20, the Ral Aqu Soc is having a picnic. I'll be gone (at VA Nature Camp) but I'm sure the rest of the gang will be glad to welcome you. I can give you some names of Winston/Greensboro people who might be coming. Happy Moving!

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#560 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:47 PM

The shrimp you had befire were ghost/glass/grass shrimp right? Cherry shrimp are not as carnivorous as those.

They were the cherry shrimp that came in the same box as the Elassoma gilberti you sent me last fall. They ate microworms, and might have eaten Elassoma gilberti eggs (I don't know if they did or not). In general they were very peaceful.

Yes, the marimo ball was the source of the cladophora algae. I watched the swordtails rip it up, eat it, and the bits leftover/excreted start growing. I actually documented its growth with glee, back in the day, thinking it was rare to be able to 'breed' marimo balls. It's not. Just wad up a clump of cladophora, if you can pry its death grip off of the rest of your plants.

I have decided to set the tank up with Miracle Gro Orangic Choice Potting Mix, the same brand of potting soil Diana Walstad uses. Link where she discusses it on page 2: http://www.atlasbook...00388Shrimp.pdf
I know you don't approve of that, Michael Wolfe, but I don't own a backyard, a car, a wheelbarrow, or a shovel, so just accept that this is the most natural thing I can get at the moment.

I have also decided to use Hemianthus callitrichoides as the ground cover and various leafy green and purple plants in the background. I think the Elassoma gilberti will like H. callitrichoides. They seem to enjoy hunting for food on the bottom, and a ground cover plant will probably give them more of a sense of security than bare soil would

Edited by EricaWieser, 11 July 2011 - 07:02 PM.