Elassoma Gilberti

I put them in my 1 gallon former ice cream bucket.

There are tiny white dots, less than a millimeter long, on the surface of the water. I tried to photograph them and they don't show up on the camera.
I took a close look and they are tiny bugs. They probably hatched out of that composted wood when it got wet. So, because the Elassoma gilberti have to be drip acclimated to North Carolina water and since the bugs pour into any container that skims and collects the surface of the water, I've been collecting those bugs and the tank water and slowly adding them to the former ice cream bucket. Maybe the fish will eat them. Even if they don't, it's a start on acclimating them to the new pH and hardness values.

Erica

I have the same thing in my Xiphophorus couchianus tank. They hop around, I've noticed. I had put some organic garden soil under the gravel and sand for plants. I suppose they could have come from the soil, also.

Harry Knaub

Looks good! I think this will be a really nice looking tank with all of the variety that you have added.

But the joke is kind of on me because there's cladophora contamination on these plants >.<

I really wouldn't worry about it. Tap water isn't sterile. It contains all sorts of algae cells, just at low levels that are acceptable for taste and odors. Try filling up an old soda bottle with tap water, capping it, and putting it in the sun for a couple weeks. You'll get algae. I even get it in my chicken's water container if it sits in the sun for a few days. You'll always have algae cells around. Trick is just to keep them under control.

I have the same thing in my Xiphophorus couchianus tank. They hop around, I've noticed. I had put some organic garden soil under the gravel and sand for plants. I suppose they could have come from the soil, also.

Mine have all disappeared now that I removed the floating wood chips from the surface of the water. I think they were the larvae of some sort of wood lice, and that they drowned. If yours are still alive after being submerged in the water then they might be some species of water rotifer, and you're lucky to have gotten them naturally. A while ago I bought small vials of rotifer cysts on aquabid, and after the wood lice larvae disappeared I infused the tank with the aquabid dried rotifer cysts to jump start the population. I'm hoping that they'll establish a sustainable population in the tank so that the fry will have some small life forms to eat. Microorganisms can be a great first food for fry. *nods*

I'm considering buying a Walmart synthetic sea sponge, cutting it up, and using it as an end cap for the filter intake so the tiny organisms don't get filtered out of the water column as much. But I've heard that small crustaceans can also establish a small breeding population inside the filter media itself (saltwater fish keepers often get a nice population in their refugiums) so maybe that's not a good idea. I dunno.

Trick is just to keep them under control.

That's very true. Controlling this next round of cladophora might be easier now that I can use algaecides without having to worry about wiping out the blackworm population in the substrate. Weaning the Elassoma gilberti onto fish flakes was really mostly about no longer having to maintain a sustainable population of blackworms. Without them, a whole line of algae-killing products becomes viable. And I've also learned the technique of removing specific plants and placing them in a high concentration algaecide bath for a small time. Even when putting the plants in the tank they were noticably less and more contaminated with cladophora depending on the species. The Ludwigias didn't have any cladophora on them, while the Rotala wallichii and Myriophyllum pinnatum were just covered in it. I put those two in an algaecide bath before adding them to the tank, and I think it helped.

Depending on the tankmates you chose, you really might not need a filter at all. Or, if you like, just an air bubbler for some water movement. That way, you will get lots of rotifers and other really tiny goodies growing around that your fry would really enjoy.

As far as algicides go, I've really been sticking to the peroxide for the past number of years. Cheap, doesn't hurt most plants, and I never noticed it really affecting the population of rotifers, so I assume the even smaller inverts were probably OK as well. And did I mention cheap? (Others will groan and say that this only temporarily fixes the symptom and not the problem. That's a given. But symptom relief is an important part of the equation, and I start there.) Plus, it doesn't leave residual chemicals like algicides do.

I bought the Jungle Labs 6-N-One test strips, which I have to say are way easier to use than the drops and vials I had been using earlier. You just stick the test strip in the water for a second, wait thirty more, and then read it. Super easy. Image of product: http://www.arcatapet...lsize/16600.jpg

Easy, but not as accurate, and doesn't have an ammonia test either. I'd stick with the vials and drops if I were you.

Good luck with the new tank though, its looking great so far.

Edited by DaveGodfrey, 21 July 2011 - 05:03 PM.

Depending on the tankmates you chose, you really might not need a filter at all. Or, if you like, just an air bubbler for some water movement. That way, you will get lots of rotifers and other really tiny goodies growing around that your fry would really enjoy.

Since you mentioned it, I think I might try an air stone and see what that's like. I do already have a pump and air stone among my fish supplies. The filter is still working to remove the tannins, though. I'm going on vacation tomorrow for a week, so I'll put fresh activated carbon in the filter before I leave, see if it's clear when I get back, and then consider switching the filter out for an air stone. At the very least I'll cover these intake tubes with sponge, because they've got giant holes in them.

Here's a current picture of the tank:
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The fish are going to be fed with an automatic fish feeder while I'm gone. I'm a bit nervous about that but even if it fails a few days in (the fish flakes inside once clumped together when I used an automatic fish feeder in the past), the fish will probably be okay. It's a week long vacation at the maximum, and possibly less.

Edited by EricaWieser, 21 July 2011 - 07:22 PM.

Easy, but not as accurate, and doesn't have an ammonia test either. I'd stick with the vials and drops if I were you.

Good luck with the new tank though, its looking great so far.

thanks

The chemical-drop test kit I had crystallized within a year. Maybe the dip sticks will stay the accuracy they are for a longer period of time. I don't know, this is my first time using them.
In the past the ammonia test always read 0 ppm and was kind of unnecessary in the fully cycled, well planted tank. If nitrite is ever a nonzero value, or if the fish start getting sick, then I'll know something is up and buy an ammonia test kit.

Edited by EricaWieser, 21 July 2011 - 08:15 PM.

Also, kind of neat, I just saw an Elassoma gilberti yank a snail out of its shell. I've never seen that before.

The Elassoma gilberti is a submissive male chilling at the top in the corner under some floating Hemianthus callitrichoides that got away during planting. It's floating next to the glass, near the outlet to the filter but outside of the strongest part of current. When a snail went floating by, it dashed forward and fed.

Interesting. I've been wondering about the empty snail shells. There aren't as many empty shells as there were when I kept darters, but there are more than when I kept bettas and swordtails.

Easy, but not as accurate, and doesn't have an ammonia test either. I'd stick with the vials and drops if I were you.

Good luck with the new tank though, its looking great so far.

thanks

The chemical-drop test kit I had crystallized within a year. Maybe the dip sticks will stay the accuracy they are for a longer period of time. I don't know, this is my first time using them.
In the past the ammonia test always read 0 ppm and was kind of unnecessary in the fully cycled, well planted tank. If nitrite is ever a nonzero value, or if the fish start getting sick, then I'll know something is up and buy an ammonia test kit.

Which test crystallised on you? The Nitrate ones don't last much over a year anyway due to the chemicals they use, but the ammonia and nitrite ones should last for several years. The accuracy is important, because with the dip-tests you could miss a continuous low level of nitrite, that they aren't picking up. However I'll admit that I tend not to bother doing regular tests. I should, but if everyone looks healthy, the tank is well planted, and I'm doing regular water changes...

Edited by DaveGodfrey, 22 July 2011 - 08:59 AM.

Which test crystallised on you?

I had the Tetra Test Laborett. Image: http://arswholesale....ds/ATS16628.jpg
It's been in the trash for a few weeks now because I didn't take it with me when I moved, so I'm not sure which individual bottles crystallized. What I can say is that the inside of the box was really gross and crystally, and that as a person who used to work around things that if they touched you (or you breathed them in) would give you cancer, that made me really uncomfortable. So I disposed of it and got test strips.

The automatic fish feeder worked when I left the apartment this morning. Now that the Elassoma gilberti are weaned onto fish flakes it's easy to set the automatic fish feeder and go on vacation. Having a nice large population of blackworms would also be a good food source, but the E. gilberti always seem to breed to such a large number that they wipe out the blackworms by overfeeding. Anyway, all seemed well when I left. The pygmy sunfish were eating the mechanically dispersed crushed fish flakes and enjoying the cover of their new plants. When I return, I'm going to remove the two guppies from the 55 gallon tank and see if the Elassoma will color up and spawn again. I've only ever had success spawning them when they were in a species-only tank, and only when eating live blackworms. It's my hope that they'll spawn now that they're regularly eating crushed fish flakes if given the tank to themselves.

Edited by EricaWieser, 22 July 2011 - 11:10 PM.

I just read through almost this entire thread (I skimmed a bit in spots) and I have a suggestion that might be helpful. I will post my question in the thread that I started in the general part of the forums.

First of all, I found your experiences to be very entertaining and informative and I am very interested in trying my hand at keeping this fish.

You mentioned a time or two that you don't do water changes, you just top off water that evaporates. In my 5 or so years of tropical fishkeeping, it's always been a standard rule to do a weekly water change, regardless of what your test results are. Even if the plants use up all the available nitrogen, there are other dissolved solids in the water that can't be tested for with a home test kit and must be removed through water changes. Regular water changes also replenish micro nutrients and minerals in the water that the plants, and probably the fish, need to thrive, such as iron. I always dose dry fertilizers in my planted tanks, adding nitrogen, phosphate, potassium, and a blend of micro nutrients and minerals to supplement whatever is in the tap water, and created by fish waste. Too much nutrients, or too little, can both cause algae.

I didn't mean for that to sound condescending, I just thought I would relate what I've learned in hopes that maybe it might help you with your algae problem. With your low bioload in a large tank, I could see monthly partial water changes (20-50%) as being sufficient.

You mentioned a time or two that you don't do water changes, you just top off water that evaporates. In my 5 or so years of tropical fishkeeping, it's always been a standard rule to do a weekly water change, regardless of what your test results are.

I was also surprised at no water changes. Like you, I have been keeping (primarily tropical) fish for about 5 years. The first year was disaster after disaster with many dead fish. That didn't change until I accepted the necessity of weekly 75% water changes. Since then, healthy tanks and fish. My largest tank is 38/40 gallons and it is heavily planted including very fast growing water lettuce, and it always shows 10 ppm nitrates even with all the plants and weekly water changes. Also without water changes, don't minerals build up in the tank as the water evaporates? Anyway, interesting topic.

I just read through almost this entire thread (I skimmed a bit in spots) and I have a suggestion that might be helpful. I will post my question in the thread that I started in the general part of the forums.

Wow, I'm impressed. I had wondered if anyone would ever read this whole thing. It's pretty long. Thank you for reading it

I was also surprised at no water changes. Like you, I have been keeping (primarily tropical) fish for about 5 years. The first year was disaster after disaster with many dead fish. That didn't change until I accepted the necessity of weekly 75% water changes.

I agree with you, when I first heard of no water changes I was very suspicious. I read about this tank setup in Diana Walstad's book, Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. She said that she didn't change her water very much at all, and the amount she did change was as little as was necessary to maintain the plants based upon a mass balance that she calculated. I thought, "wow, that's insane" the first time I read it, but then I set up that 10 gallon tank and didn't do any water changes for months and it was fine and I thought, "Huh, this works." So now I am in favor of more live plants and less water changes. It took a while to sway my opinion, but I've seen it work; live plants can do a lot of filtration.

You mentioned a time or two that you don't do water changes, you just top off water that evaporates. In my 5 or so years of tropical fishkeeping, it's always been a standard rule to do a weekly water change, regardless of what your test results are. Even if the plants use up all the available nitrogen, there are other dissolved solids in the water that can't be tested for with a home test kit and must be removed through water changes. Regular water changes also replenish micro nutrients and minerals in the water that the plants, and probably the fish, need to thrive, such as iron...

Well, you have to remember that my tank wasn't set up that long. What with moving from one place to another and replacing gravel with kitty litter, the longest time period my tanks actually went without a 100% water change was two months. The dissolved solids concentration probably didn't get too high in two months, right? I dunno. As you said, there's no way to test for them.
Nativeplanter suggested that perhaps the kitty litter had a high phosphate level, which I think might be true. It seems I need better test kits, because I don't know what's going on in my water. *sighs*

Does anyone know of any good automatic water change systems that a renter can set up? I don't want to tap into my water line because I don't know where it is and I think my landlord might get mad at me. I'm going to do some research on this and see if I can set something up. If it would help the fish, and reduce cladophora algae growth, I'm willing to try it.

The best investment I ever made in my fishkeeping hobby was a Python. It's not an automatic water changing device, but it's the next best thing. It comes with a fitting that screws onto the mouth of your faucet once you remove the normal cap that it has on the end. Then, when you are ready for a water change, you hook it up, and depending on which way the bottom part is turned (up and to the right = refill, down and to the left = drain) you can suck the water right out of the tank, and then fill it back up again. If you are worried about sucking up fish, you can cover the mouth of it with pantyhose or other fine mesh. I usually use the fabric netting from a normal small fish net and rubberband it on.

It works using a cyclone created by the water from the faucet going through a specially designed funnel shaped piece of plastic inside the part that hooks to the faucet. It creates suction that pulls water out of the tank.

What you are doing is obviously working though, and I can't imagine that you'd need to do partial water changes terribly often. 100 tiny 1" or smaller fish do not even compare in mass and bioload to even 3 or 4 large fish in the same water volume.

I could probably get away with doing partial water changes less frequently if I wasn't dosing fertilizers, but to keep from overdosing the tank, I have to do a 50% partial water change weekly.

I've heard of the Walstad method, but never looked into it very closely. I don't doubt that it's successful, but I always end up thinking...how many wild bodies of water so rarely get any rain or fresh snow runoff, etc.? I'm sure there are some, with creatures that live in them specifically adapted to those conditions, but most bodies of water have at least some new water being added, and old water being swept away.

That and I like aquascaping. Probably the Pygmies I get will have java fern, java moss, anubias, and lots of floating plants with long fuzzy roots, like water lettuce and water hyacinth. I kill hornwort in my aquariums.

Taari, thank you for explaining the Python to me In my new setup the sink is 12-14 ish feet away from the kitchen sink. I'm seeing 25 foot Python models for $30-$50. If that would prevent me from ever having to carry a bucket of water around again, it would be worth it. I'm definitely keeping that in mind, and may add it to next month's budget. thanks

I arrived home from vacation to find both happy and sad things. Happy: The fish tank cleared up. Sad: The female guppy died in childbirth or right before it, so the Elassoma gilberti tank is just Elassoma and the male guppy. Happy: The Elassoma are coloring back up, now that they have plants again. Males are claiming territories and darkening, and I saw one attempt a courting wiggle.

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I took out the big 50-or-70-gallon-rated Aquaclear filter as nativeplanter suggested, reducing the water flow to just the 10 gallon filter. Honestly, the 10 gallon filter was all I left on over vacation and it turned the tank from blackwater to clear in less than a week, so I think it's doing a great job. I won't miss the huge filter, which made a lot of noise and made so much water movement that if the Elassoma went near the output they got tossed around like the one inch fish they are. They like current... but they're still only an inch long, and they can be overpowered, the poor things.

Hopefully the Elassoma gilberti will breed soon. The automatic fish feeder worked, so they're looking as fat as they ever have on flakes. I'm thinking of removing this male guppy to a 10 gallon tank of his own to let the Elassoma breed in peace, but I'm also considering leaving him in the 55 until I can buy him a new mate. I can't tell if he's disturbing the E. gilberti or not, and will probably make my mind up about that over the next few days as I observe them. At this point I'm just happy to be home with my fish tank, and happy that most of the fish pulled through. So many tiny Elassoma

I've observed the tank and the Elassoma gilberti definitely stop motioning towards spawning when the male guppy swims by. I'm setting up a 10 gallon tank just for him tomorrow. That might mean the 10 gallon filter gets moved off the 55, or it might not. I don't want to put the 50-70 gallon rated filter back on if I don't have to. There aren't enough plants in the tank yet to block the 50-70 rated filter, and it made a huge current when turned all the way on.

Male Elassoma gilberti are turning dark grey with blue. They're claiming different clumps of plants as their territories. So far they like the most heavily grown in plants best, regardless of the fluffiness of the leaves. They're still a little skinny, though, so I guess we'll have to wait until this guppy is removed to see if spawning is actually possible on a pure-flakes-for-months diet. My hopes are high so far, since I've seen them wiggling around a little already.

Male claiming the Myriophyllum pinnatum:
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He won't leave that clump of plants. There are females in there with him.
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That male in the pictures above is one of the oldest and skinniest of the Elassoma gilberti. I'm figuring that he's existing on snails alone, since he's so skinny. Some of the young ones that eat flakes are rapidly catching up to him in size, and are darker than him.

This automatic fish feeder is really nice. The Elassoma have to eat the flakes really frequently, and having the automatic feeder go twice a day is very helpful. I'm feeding them one or two more times a day on top of that. They should bulk up soon.

Edited by EricaWieser, 28 July 2011 - 01:14 PM.

I forgot to mention on the Python, just make sure when you do water changes that you add dechlorinator directly to the tank, and enough of it for the entire tank, not just the amount of water you are adding back.

I hope they start breeding again on the flake diet! Then maybe when I get some, I can convert them to pellets, lol! I've never fed fish flakes, I always get pellets, frozen, or live foods. Maybe I'll have to get a small portion of Ken's flake food or something for them, since Erica went through all that trouble to wean them onto flakes

You don't to wean them onto pellets; they'd love any frozen foods you could give them. The reason why I don't feed them frozen bloodworms is because other people aren't comfortable with me putting creepy crawlies in the communal freezer. But if you already have some on hand (and have a freezer that no one objects to having worms in), then feed them that.