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Elassoma Gilberti

Started by Guest_Okiimiru_* , Aug 22 2010 01:19 PM

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1023 replies to this topic

#621 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 01:16 PM

The nitrite readings strike me as rather odd. Is it possible that by using your automatic feeder you are overfeeding? Alternatively, I have heard rumours about many nitrite test kits giving false positives - you might want to research the chemistry of that a little.

Regarding the diatoms, switching back to cat litter probably won't solve the problem. It is my understanding that cat litters have very high amounts of silicates - once again, you might want to check on that. But with any bloom, if you sit tight and wait, it may settle down.

(On a side notes, I wouldn't have said that the litter you used "worked beautifully". If I remember, you weren't really happy with how your tank looked when you tore it down. I've found that no substrate is going to be all things to all people, and few can be all things to even one person.)

The automatic fish feeder has been empty for a while; I had not refilled it because I felt it was untrustworthy.

As to overfeeding, well, I always overfeed. I have for months, since I started feeding the E. gilberti flake foods. I add a teaspoon-ish of crushed flake food every five hours to a tank where the fish only barely eat the flake food. There are around four hundred snails in the 55 gallon tank just to keep up with all the waste management. But I've never had a nitrite reading before, and the tank's never been yellow, cloudy, and smelled bad. It's probably because of the poultry excrement, which was a major ingredient in the Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix®. I think the problem will go away when I either get the Python in the mail or the plants fill in enough to handle the nitrogen load. But until then it kind of stinks.

I believe the test kit when it says that there's a nitrite reading. The water literally smells bad.

And yeah, the kitty litter isn't perfect. But it doesn't stain the water yellow or float for a month like a composted wood substrate does. The test batch that I kept in a separate container still hasn't all sunk, believe it or not. So I'm avoiding composted wood as a substrate in the future. Soil is still something I have an open mind about and might try in a future tank setup, but I'm avoiding any potting mix that has composted wood as an ingredient. Or poultry excrement.

Edited by EricaWieser, 08 August 2011 - 01:41 PM.

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#622 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 02:45 PM

I checked on the tank just now. Apparently the yellow water has become green water and the smell has gone away. What a relief. I skipped the 1/3 water change, added some rotifer eggs, and called it a day.

Current picture of tank, taken not five minutes ago:

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The Elassoma gilberti don't seem to care. They're swimming around in the open like they normally do when the water is translucent instead of completely clear. You can actually see a gilberti in this picture, on the upper right side of the tank up against the glass.

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There's one on the left side of the tank, too. These fish are super tiny compared to the tank they're in.

Also, apparently an algal bloom was to be expected with this Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix® substrate. I reeeaally should have read this article instead of just yanking out the name of the substrate she used. http://gallery.nanfa...resize.jpg.html

Edited by EricaWieser, 08 August 2011 - 02:57 PM.

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#623 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 08 August 2011 - 02:57 PM

I reeeaally should have read this article instead of just yanking out the name of the substrate she used.

I reeeeaally wished I would have been able to convince you to just use dirt out of my back yard, or Geralds, or even out of your parents in Ohio before you left (moving dirt, now that's even grazier than moving water... I'v done both, but it is still crazy). I dont think you would have had any of these problems with just three or four good shovels of backyard. I know your limitation, what with being a graduate schooled and everything, so I don't know exactly how it could have worked... just wishful thinging on my part... trying to make more natural dirt aquarium believers.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#624 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 02:58 PM

I reeeeaally wished I would have been able to convince you to just use dirt out of my back yard, or Geralds, or even out of your parents in Ohio before you left (moving dirt, now that's even grazier than moving water... I'v done both, but it is still crazy). I dont think you would have had any of these problems with just three or four good shovels of backyard. I know your limitation, what with being a graduate schooled and everything, so I don't know exactly how it could have worked... just wishful thinging on my part... trying to make more natural dirt aquarium believers.

I wish I had, too, Michael. I wish I had, too.

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#625 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 03:23 PM

I reeeeaally wished I would have been able to convince you to just use dirt out of my back yard, or Geralds, or even out of your parents in Ohio before you left (moving dirt, now that's even grazier than moving water... I'v done both, but it is still crazy). I dont think you would have had any of these problems with just three or four good shovels of backyard. I know your limitation, what with being a graduate schooled and everything, so I don't know exactly how it could have worked... just wishful thinging on my part... trying to make more natural dirt aquarium believers.

I was thinking the same thing... The problem with the soil you bought is that it doesn't actually contain any real soil. And, of course, the poultry litter (I forgot about the poultry litter) will be adding amazing amounts of both nitrogen and phosphorus.

See if you can meet up with Gerald at some point, and maybe he can give you some dirt. If it were me and I were able to get some, I would do a total tear-down. When is the next Raleigh Aquarium Society meeting? I know he attends those. (Gerald... sorry for volunteering you... but you're such a good sport...)

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#626 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 04:13 PM

I'm not really interested in tearing the entire tank down and putting in all new substrate. I'm going to give the tank some more time.

Nitrite is back to being 0 mg/L, so as long as the fish's health isn't in danger, I'm fine.

Edited by EricaWieser, 08 August 2011 - 04:17 PM.

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#627 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 04:21 PM

Winston-Salem is about 2+ hrs from Raleigh or Wake Forest. (That's right: WF Univ is NOT in Wake Forest anymore. It up & left in 1953 when Reynolds Tobacco gave them land & money to move to Winston-Salem). I'd be glad to bring Erica some good Carolina dirt whenever we can get together, but she can probably get a friend with a car to stop at some nearby recently cut forest to grab a bucket of local dirt sooner.

Erica - I do need an adult female gilberti if you have one to spare. Will let you know if I have a trip to W-S coming up (might have some work there, dunno yet). The next RAS meeting is Sep 1 and the RAS fall auction is Sep 25. There's several folks from the Triad area likely to be coming to that, if you want to catch a ride.

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#628 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 06:19 PM

Erica - I do need an adult female gilberti if you have one to spare. Will let you know if I have a trip to W-S coming up (might have some work there, dunno yet). The next RAS meeting is Sep 1 and the RAS fall auction is Sep 25. There's several folks from the Triad area likely to be coming to that, if you want to catch a ride.

I've always got gilberti for you, Gerald. I appreciate you sending me my original fish

School is starting so I won't be able to make it to Raleigh anytime soon, but I can mail you a couple fish if you pm me your address. Pickup also works if your job brings you to Winston-Salem in the near future.

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#629 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 07:45 AM

I've been leaving the lights on for all the hours of sunlight in a day and adding rotifer eggs. The tank water is like living green pea soup. I'm very pleased

Not many people try to encourage green water, but I love it. Lots of wee little beasties for the Elassoma to eat, without any effort on my part

Green water is notoriously hard to sustain though (ask anyone breeding fish who needs it for their fry), so we'll see how long this lasts. Probably not long. I imagine the rotifers will breed up to too high of a population and eat it all.

tank resize.jpg 142.36KB 0 downloads
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I guess it also helps to know that I can wipe the green water out at any time with a few drops of my trusty Tetra Pond Algae Control®. I tried it on the 10 gallon tank (it had plants from the old setup, which still has the old strain of cladophora, which is insanely strong. The cladophora that came in on the new plants does not seem to want to spread) and the water became crystal clear like air.

Edited by EricaWieser, 10 August 2011 - 07:55 AM.

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#630 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 10:17 AM

Wow that's beautiful. A phycologist's dream of a planted tank.
I guess your heavy feeding of flake food is a contributor.

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#631 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 11:35 AM

Winston-Salem is about 2+ hrs from Raleigh or Wake Forest. (That's right: WF Univ is NOT in Wake Forest anymore. It up & left in 1953 when Reynolds Tobacco gave them land & money to move to Winston-Salem). I'd be glad to bring Erica some good Carolina dirt whenever we can get together, but she can probably get a friend with a car to stop at some nearby recently cut forest to grab a bucket of local dirt sooner.

Wow - I didn't realize - go figure! OK Gerald, you're off the hook! :biggrin:

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#632 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 05:32 PM

The tank is solid, solid green now. One can barely see the Hemianthus callitrichoides that is an inch away from the glass. I attached a picture below.

I've added three of the little vials of rotifer cysts to the water over the past three days, which I think hold approximately 10,000 rotifer eggs each. They're parthenogenic, so if even one hatches it'll replicate itself and there will be a bloom of rotifers. I figure that the rotifers will each all the algae, breeding to a large number before beginning to starve. The Elassoma will probably gorge themselves on the rotifers which, I hope, will trigger spawning.

Can't see in the tank, though, so I have no idea if it's working.

And I haven't given up on flake-only feeding. They're eating flakes too, I've seen them do it. It's just that this green water was the perfect opportunity to use the thousands of dried rotifer eggs I had leftover from a purchase a while ago.

Male Elassoma gilbert in green water resize.jpg 122.84KB 0 downloads

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Edited by EricaWieser, 12 August 2011 - 05:44 PM.

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#633 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 09:24 AM

Hi Erica,
Do keep in mind that the thick greenwater will likely hamper your vascular plants, especially if you still want that short groundcover look you were going for. The amount of light they will get will be really reduced. No big deal if you decide that you want to change direction and go this way, but just something to keep in mind if you wanted the planted tank more.

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#634 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 09:28 AM

Hi Erica,
Do keep in mind that the thick greenwater will likely hamper your vascular plants, especially if you still want that short groundcover look you were going for. The amount of light they will get will be really reduced. No big deal if you decide that you want to change direction and go this way, but just something to keep in mind if you wanted the planted tank more.

It's just temporary green water, and is already less green than it was at its peak. The goal was never to make it permanent, just to take advantage of it while it was here to get an in-tank rotifer population. The plants are still growing, so I don't think they're dying.

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#635 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 09:11 AM

Update: The water is really opaque and I miss seeing fish. This morning I added some Tetra Pond Algae Control® to hopefully end the green water phase and see what's going on in the tank. I'll check on it later today to see if it clears up and do a water change if it does (with my brand new super awesome Python No Spill Clean And Fill®

). If it's not clear, I'll add more. The amount of Algae Control® I added was a low dose.

Edited by EricaWieser, 17 August 2011 - 09:14 AM.

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#636 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 05:33 PM

Update: The water is really opaque and I miss seeing fish. This morning I added some Tetra Pond Algae Control® to hopefully end the green water phase and see what's going on in the tank. I'll check on it later today to see if it clears up and do a water change if it does (with my brand new super awesome Python No Spill Clean And Fill® ). If it's not clear, I'll add more. The amount of Algae Control® I added was a low dose.

Update:
When I came home today, there was an inch or so thick layer of precipitated algae on the bottom of the fish tank.
My view of the pygmy sunfish went from this in green water:

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to this with the precipitated algae:

precipitated algae resize.jpg 114.09KB 0 downloads
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Still not very good visibility, so I spent about an hour doing water changes with my new favorite fish tool, the Python No Spill Clean and Fill®. Thank you so much, Taari, for recommending this. I really like it.

The Elassoma gilberti didn't mind the water changes as much as they usually did because instead of sloppily dumping a huge amount of water in at a time like I did with buckets, the Python gradually fills. Still, I had to change the water like five full times to get all the algae out, so here's some photos of them being traumatized and huddling together in the corners:

traumatized pygmy sunfish back left corner.jpg 194.72KB 0 downloads

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http://gallery.nanfa...corner.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...corner.jpg.html

So, it took a while, what with the 500% or so water change (over an hour. But I didn't mind because I didn't have to haul buckets around like I normally do). Here's what the tank looks like now.

tank after green water.jpg 141.09KB 0 downloads
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Which, I know, isn't the clearest water ever, but it's a dramatic change from what it looked like before. The pygmy sunfish don't care. They're swimming around like they did before, and seem pretty apathetic about how pretty I think their tank is.

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#637 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 08:58 PM

So, it turns out that if you sneak up underneath the Elassoma, it can't see you. You can't see it very well either (see picture below) but it's pretty close and it doesn't disturb them in case they're spawning. Not that they were spawning; it looked more like he just wanted to reestablish dominance over the clump of Myriophyllum pinnatum now that they can see one another again. But still, I'm glad to see that at least one male is wearing spawning colors. It's a sign he's got some food in him and might be thinking of dancing the breeding dance soon.

DSC03965.JPG 96.85KB 4 downloads
http://gallery.nanfa...C03965.JPG.html

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#638 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 09:13 AM

Erica -- if you were filling directly from the faucet, how did you handle dechlorinating? Did you dose the dechlorinator for the whole 55 gals each time you refilled and drained it? I believe City of W-S uses chloramine like Raleigh, correct?

BTW, In tanks with Elassoma or other tiny fish that hide in detritus, Python is fine for filling but I am leery of using it for removing water near the bottom. You cant stop it as quickly as a manual siphon if you suck up a fish, and fibrous plants/moss/algae can clog your drain if the sink doesnt have a strainer.

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#639 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 01:16 PM

Erica -- if you were filling directly from the faucet, how did you handle dechlorinating? Did you dose the dechlorinator for the whole 55 gals each time you refilled and drained it? I believe City of W-S uses chloramine like Raleigh, correct?

Ah, that explains why the chlorine dip test I used earlier said 0 ppm. *nods* Makes sense, if they're using chloramine instead of chlorine.

Because I had filled and emptied the tank many times, I assumed that the vast majority of the water in the tank was new. So when I was done with the water changes, I dosed the tank for 55 out of 55 gallons. I use Dechlor® product by Weco, which takes one drop per gallon for chlorine and two drops per gallon for chloramine.

BTW, In tanks with Elassoma or other tiny fish that hide in detritus, Python is fine for filling but I am leery of using it for removing water near the bottom. You cant stop it as quickly as a manual siphon if you suck up a fish, and fibrous plants/moss/algae can clog your drain if the sink doesnt have a strainer.

There is an emergency-off valve where the big siphon tube connects to the main length of hose. The valve location is about where your other arm is if your main arm is in the tank moving the siphon around. But I never had to use the emergency off valve because the suction coming from the python with the widening, straining attachment is very low strength. The Python came with an attachment for the end of the hose that doesn't let any particle wider than a millimeter or two through it. I found that I could put the attachment just barely an inch above an Elassoma and it would continue to sit on the bottom, unperturbed. (It was too big to fit through the little holes anyway, so there was no danger).

I'm actually really impressed why this product and I don't understand why rumor says the company is going out of business. It's a great tool and I would recommend it to anyone who is currently using buckets to fill their tank. I'm a weak, fat person, and eliminating the need to lift and haul buckets is making me enjoy my fish hobby a million times more.

Edited by EricaWieser, 18 August 2011 - 01:23 PM.

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#640 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 18 August 2011 - 03:54 PM

Because I had filled and emptied the tank many times, I assumed that the vast majority of the water in the tank was new. So when I was done with the water changes, I dosed the tank for 55 out of 55 gallons. I use Dechlor® product by Weco, which takes one drop per gallon for chlorine and two drops per gallon for chloramine.

So how long was it, do you think, from when you started doing these 500% water changes and when you decided you were done and put the dechlor in? I am just curious, because I would think that it takes a long time to do a 500% water change in a big tank like that. So maybe the fish were exposed to chlorine for some period of time?

I am not trying to bash you at all... actually the opposite... I read something one time (I can't remember where right now) that said that you should not declorinate water when you do a partial waterchange for Elassoma...!!! I thought it was crazy, but I have done it several times and they done seem to be bothered by it at all, or at least not like other fish...

So, did your guys ust swim around in the tap water for a couple of hours while you changed the water 500%? I would be curious to hear about that.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin