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Elassoma Gilberti

Started by Guest_Okiimiru_* , Aug 22 2010 01:19 PM

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#641 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 04:58 PM

So how long was it, do you think, from when you started doing these 500% water changes and when you decided you were done and put the dechlor in? I am just curious, because I would think that it takes a long time to do a 500% water change in a big tank like that. So maybe the fish were exposed to chlorine for some period of time?

I am not trying to bash you at all... actually the opposite... I read something one time (I can't remember where right now) that said that you should not declorinate water when you do a partial waterchange for Elassoma...!!! I thought it was crazy, but I have done it several times and they done seem to be bothered by it at all, or at least not like other fish...

So, did your guys ust swim around in the tap water for a couple of hours while you changed the water 500%? I would be curious to hear about that.

The water change took between one and two hours. Yes, the fish swam around in the tank the whole time. I would empty the tank to halfway, then fill it, then empty it to half way, then fill it. I did that over and over again until the water was clear. Once finished, I only dosed the tank with 40-50 drops of very old and crystally Dechlor (not at full strength, as some of the active ingredient has crystallized out).

I personally have never believed all the hype about chlorine poisoning being strong enough to kill or seriously harm fish. I have, however, had issues with overdosing the tank with chemicals designed to detoxify chlorine, and those have killed my fish. So now I dose with just enough chlorine remover, no more.
You've got to be careful with Elassoma because they don't itch themselves like swordtails do. If there's an external parasite or something bothering them, they for the most part just sit there. That's why I try to avoid poisoning them by adding only just enough dechlorinator. It's nearly impossible to measure how much you have when you're constantly filling and emptying. Best to just wait until the water change is over, and then add an exact number of drops. The issue here is time. It's better for the Elassoma to spend the amount of time it takes you to do the water change in chlorinated water than for them to spend the amount of time it takes until I do another water change in highly concentrated chlorine-removing chemical because I overdosed the tank after refilling.

Once Gerald mentioned chloramine it made a lot of sense to me that that's what's in my tap water since the chlorine's at 0 ppm. It's very likely there's still chloramine in the water as I type this, because Dechlor needs two drops per gallon to remove chloramine instead of the one drop for gallon for chlorine. I am adding 50 more drops after I post this, to neutralize the chloramine.

Edited by EricaWieser, 18 August 2011 - 05:35 PM.

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#642 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 05:38 PM

The fish aren't fat enough for my liking. I'm thinking of culturing microworms.

Frozen bloodworms are too expensive for me to always be buying (and certain people don't want them in the freezer),
live blackworms are difficult to maintain a breeding population of in the Elassoma tank (and certain people don't want them in the refrigerator),
but microworms I think I can handle. They're going to sit underneath the Elassoma tank, three containers time rotated for three week culture life spans.

I want the fish to be breeding, so I can send Taari some babies. : )

Edited by EricaWieser, 18 August 2011 - 05:43 PM.

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#643 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 07:41 AM

Update: The poultry litter bubbled, coming up kind of like a volcano. Now there is a little black patch sitting exposed among the grey kitty litter and the water is cloudy. I'm going to go buy more kitty litter this weekend and cover it.

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#644 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 08:58 AM

The fish aren't fat enough for my liking. I'm thinking of culturing microworms.

Frozen bloodworms are too expensive for me to always be buying (and certain people don't want them in the freezer),
live blackworms are difficult to maintain a breeding population of in the Elassoma tank (and certain people don't want them in the refrigerator),
but microworms I think I can handle. They're going to sit underneath the Elassoma tank, three containers time rotated for three week culture life spans.

I want the fish to be breeding, so I can send Taari some babies. : )

I just now bought some grindal worms, too. They seem similar in size to blackworms but aren't aquatic, and seem easier to breed. Have any of you ever used grindal worms to feed pygmy sunfish?

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#645 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 09:00 PM

Update: The poultry litter bubbled, coming up kind of like a volcano. Now there is a little black patch sitting exposed among the grey kitty litter and the water is cloudy. I'm going to go buy more kitty litter this weekend and cover it.

Update: Done! This new bag of kitty litter I bought must be a different batch from the other one. It's like, white white. Very neat to see white clay.

Also, about the grindal worms, I went out and bought them some flat plastic containers like a shoebox but a third as tall. I also got Scotchbrite® scrubbie pads. This was following the suggestion of several websites (link to one of them: http://www.angelfire...CultureNEW.html ). The wikipedia page for grindal worms said they grow best on meaty foods, not vegetable based ones, so I bought meat based pellets while out shopping. I really like how long grindal cultures last. Raising microworms trained me to think that all cultures of live foods would need replacing every 1-3 weeks. These grindals apparently grow for months. Nice. Well, I hope so. I'll report on the reaction of the Elassoma to them once they arrive. Do any of ya'all have any experience with feeding grindal worms to pygmy sunfish?

Edited by EricaWieser, 19 August 2011 - 09:00 PM.

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#646 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 09:29 AM

Do any of ya'all have any experience with feeding grindal worms to pygmy sunfish?

I liked to put half a petri dish on the bottom and put the grindals onto that. The pygmies learned to go to the dish. It helped keep the grindals from burrowing into the substrate where I assume they would die since they aren't aquatic.

I see you're picking up southernisms already - you're a quick study!

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#647 Guest_Taari_*

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 09:57 AM

My best friend lives in Texas and will be moving up here to where I live in about 2 weeks for his doctorate program (the collage he got his Masters through doesn't do an online doctorate, so he has to be here in person) and both his parents have a very strong southern accent, but he has none whatsoever. The only southernism he uses is "Y'all" because he says the English language has no good third person plural that's just one word.

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#648 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 04:08 PM

I liked to put half a petri dish on the bottom and put the grindals onto that. The pygmies learned to go to the dish. It helped keep the grindals from burrowing into the substrate where I assume they would die since they aren't aquatic.

thanks for the tip. I'll keep that in mind : )

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#649 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 23 August 2011 - 10:31 PM

It's the time of day when I add crushed fish flakes to the tank. Both this fish and I know it, and the fish is a little annoyed that I have the video camera out and am not at the moment feeding it. I think this is the Elassoma version of a dog begging at the table.

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#650 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 24 August 2011 - 08:18 AM

It's the time of day when I add crushed fish flakes to the tank. Both this fish and I know it, and the fish is a little annoyed that I have the video camera out and am not at the moment feeding it. I think this is the Elassoma version of a dog begging at the table.

Yep, that fish knows what is supposed to be happening... and is looking at you... and would come right to you if it weren't for that crazy piece of glass... you can almost hear the little fishy voice "do it, do it, do it, drop the stuff in, do it, do it."

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#651 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 10:38 PM

Tonight I fed them crushed fish flakes and, for the first time in many months, live micro/walter worms. Some of the Elassoma who had both refused to eat crushed fish flakes and refused to die came out and dined. I think feeding worms and crushed flakes at the same time is what I'm going to do from now on; the worms provide the wiggle (the motivation for the Elassoma to open their mouths and eat) and the crushed flakes have some vitamins in them.

I expect that the grindal worms will arrive in the mail tomorrow, and hopefully that culture will be large enough to start feeding the Elassoma soon.

Also, culturing micro/walter worms (not sure what species I have) is sooo much easier when you leave a coffee filter on the top of the culture and just scrape the worms off the top of it at harvest time. You don't get any culture media in the scoop, and you get many, many worms.

These worm cultures are really not expensive or a hassle at all. The microworms cost $4 on aquabid and eat a slice of bread a week. The grindals were $12 on aquabid and I'm going to feed them fish food pellets. It's very simple, and I like that the Elassoma are gorging themselves. They'll eat the flakes, yes, but stop as soon as they're full enough not to die. With worms, they enjoy eating, and they get nice and fat.

Edited by EricaWieser, 24 August 2011 - 10:40 PM.

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#652 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 12:12 PM

Response of Elassoma gilberti to grindal worms:

Elassoma gilberti eats grindal worm resize.jpg 172.1KB 0 downloads
http://gallery.nanfa...l worm.jpg.html

The fish in the picture is one of the ones that refused to eat any more flakes than was needed to keep it barely alive. It stuffed itself on grindal worms.

Edited by EricaWieser, 25 August 2011 - 12:13 PM.

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#653 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 25 August 2011 - 12:58 PM

The fish in the picture... stuffed itself on grindal worms.

Faster than my eyes can see... call him Beowulf

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#654 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 07:20 AM

This is the technique I'm using to raise my grindal worms: http://www.aka.org/a.../index.php?id=7
Synthetic substrate (dollar store and Scotchbrite® sponges), a centimeter or two of water in the bottom of the plastic shoe box, and I feed them fish food pellets. I like the synthetic substrate because it allows the water to sit nicely at the bottom of the box and the worms off of the water. When I ordered the grindal worms off of aquabid, the worms I got arrived in their culture box with soil. If I add too much water to it, the whole thing gets really mushy and the worms don't have anywhere to escape. With the sponges, they are easily able to avoid being wet if they don't want to.

I will take a picture of the colonies I have going and post them once my new camera charger arrives in the mail.
By the way, I ordered a fully grown colony of grindals instead of a starter seed amount, and that's why I was able to feed my fish with them immediately after they arrived. I recommend buying a 'ready to feed' colony. It was very easy.

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#655 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 10:52 AM

I have made up my mind. I much prefer feeding the pygmy sunfish by dropping in grindal worms than by keeping a large population of live californian blackworms in the tank. When you drop food in, they associate food with a human face. It makes them much less skittish. When the food is just generally in the tank hanging out, the fish associate your face with being startled, and they hide. So for anyone beginning to keep a pygmy sunfish, I have this advice: buy a grindal worm culture, or several cultures, and breed up worms that you then drop into the tank. I use tweezers and I drop them in right at the front near the glass. The pygmy sunfish simply swarm at the front. It's great. The reaction of the majority of the population to me walking up to the tank has changed from 'run and hide' to 'swim forward and anticipate food'.

Edited by EricaWieser, 02 September 2011 - 10:56 AM.

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#656 Guest_Taari_*

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 01:39 PM

That sounds like a good idea. I bet my other fish would like the grindals too.

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#657 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 01:02 PM

Update: The replacement camera charger should arrive any day now, and when it does, boy will I have some neat video to show you all! The grindal worms have completely tamed the Elassoma gilberti. Now when it's feeding time, they all rush forward to the front of the tank, displaying and prancing about when they see my face. They're much, much fatter and very colorful now. I love it

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#658 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 11:32 AM

Update: I've learned two things in the past few days that I'd like to share.

1. Tetra brand's Algae Control® product is indeed fatal in high doses, not only to the algae that you were trying to kill, but also to the Hemianthus callitrichoides that you were trying to save and to the Elassoma gilberti that you were hoping wouldn't be affected. I lost three fish, and also no, as I suspected, they don't itch themselves when distressed. They just sit on the bottom, breathe slower, get stiffer, and die. There are no warning signs until you see your first dead fish.

2. Dropping grindal worms regularly has resulted in the individual fish quickly learning that they need to try to get to the worms before another fish can. The worms get eaten before they can even hit the bottom. Today I dropped flake food in, and the fish swam anticipatorally towards the front of the tank and up off of the bottom, as they do when eating grindal worms. At first a fat female approached the flakes warily, recognizing that they were not the same as the worms she was used to seeing drop down from above. Then a non-dominant male swam up from behind her, darted forward, and snatched the piece of flake she had been eyeballing (they're quite competitive). The whole experience has left me wishing that I had weaned the Elassoma gilberti onto flakes by taking the method: In-tank blackworms -> dropping grindal worms -> dropping flakes. I believe now that that would have eased the process. They associate 'items falling from surface' and 'large human face at front of tank' with food now.
I'm going to continue to feed both flake and grindal worms, for nutritional reasons. I'm also feeding the grindal worms vitamin enriched fish pellets instead of merely quick oats, because I think this might enhance their nutritional value.

In general news, the camera charger has still not arrived. This is a bit annoying, because the behavior of the fish during feeding time is really entertaining. I just rewatched the video I posted above in this topic of an Elassoma gilberti encountering its first grindal worm. It's nothing like that anymore. Grindal worms don't have time to hit the bottom of the tank because the fish swim up into the water column to snatch them. The fish are much more ... aggressive? That's not the word I'm looking for. But it seemed, at first, that they were very wary and were afraid of the grindal worms. Scared females would dart forward, peck at the worm, and dart away lest it fight back. Now, the worms are an accepted food source and the fish eagerly gobble them down as soon as they spot one, no hesitation. They're pretty cute, and really are thriving. That's one of the reasons seeing those three dead fish especially bummed me out.

Stupid me for not measuring the dose of algaecide.

Edited by EricaWieser, 09 September 2011 - 11:44 AM.

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#659 Guest_Drew_*

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 12:11 PM

1. Tetra brand's Algae Control® product is indeed fatal in high doses, not only to the algae that you were trying to kill, but also to the Hemianthus callitrichoides that you were trying to save and to the Elassoma gilberti that you were hoping wouldn't be affected. I lost three fish, and also no, as I suspected, they don't itch themselves when distressed. They just sit on the bottom, breathe slower, get stiffer, and die. There are no warning signs until you see your first dead fish.

Any of those chemicals are fatal in high doses. They so say on the bottle (I'm pretty sure but its been years since I've looked at one). Resolving the source of the algae problem is the safest method instead of dosing with chemicals.

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#660 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 12:34 PM

Any of those chemicals are fatal in high doses. They so say on the bottle...

Yeah, but normally most species of fish 'itch' themselves when they're distressed. My swordtails (Xiphophorus hellerii) would rub themselves against tank decorations when something was bothering them. These Elassoma gilberti don't give you any warnings like that. The first sign of distress is death. It would have been nice to have had a warning sign.
I didn't even dose as high as I have in the past, so I didn't expect any of them to die. The chicken litter substrate has been volcano-ing a lot, though, so perhaps it's a combination of hydrogen sulfide and algaecide together that irritated the Elassoma. I don't know. I did an emergency water change and the rest of the fish 'seem' fine, although it's impossible to tell if they are or not. They're eating well, which is a good sign.

Edited by EricaWieser, 09 September 2011 - 12:54 PM.