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Adult brine shrimp are HUGE relative to Elassoma. Much bigger than the fish's mouth, even for smallish shrimps. If you can get baby ones though, they will be eaten.
Elassoma Gilberti
Started by
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, Aug 22 2010 01:19 PM
1023 replies to this topic
#682
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Posted 25 September 2011 - 02:40 PM
The gallery is working for me again, so here's the links for the pictures from post #680 so everyone, not just forum members, can see the images. I've reposted the text with the hyperlinks to the images instead of the embedded images.
...
Yay, my replacement camera charger arrived in the mail!
Here's a picture of what the tank looks like right now. I killed off a lot of the Hemianthus callitrichoides with the algaecide and the blackout period it had during the green water. But it's hardy, so patches are growing back.
http://gallery.nanfa..._09_24.jpg.html
Here's both genders of Elassoma gilberti in the same photograph. The male is being all dominant here; he's the black and blue one. Subdominant males can be light brown with neon blue on their sides, and females are light brown with blue eye semicircles.
http://gallery.nanfa...lberti.jpg.html
These are females
http://gallery.nanfa...lberti.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...lberti.jpg.html
Here's one eating a bloodworm. I bought frozen cubes for $5 for 30 at Petsmart and cut them so the bloodworms aren't so long. They're about the same diameter as the Elassoma's throat, so if they're too long they try to eat them but choke a little. I cut the block up while it's still frozen so the worms get segmented into smaller bits that are easier for the fish to swallow.
http://gallery.nanfa...odworm.jpg.html
Male eating bloodworms. Only males have blue edges on their fins; females won't.
http://gallery.nanfa...dworms.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...worms2.jpg.html
Another photo of a male:
http://gallery.nanfa...formis.jpg.html
Here's a male beginning to color up. They get darker when they want to express their dominance around other fish.
http://gallery.nanfa...lor up.jpg.html
This one's dark because he's trying to express that this is his bloodworm eating territory.
http://gallery.nanfa...ritory.jpg.html
This is what a territory dispute looks like:
http://gallery.nanfa...m land.jpg.html
The winner looks like this:
http://gallery.nanfa...ispute.jpg.html
and the loser gets all clear, like this:
http://gallery.nanfa...te_001.jpg.html
Neither fish gets injured during the territory dispute. They just flap their fins at one another.
Elassoma gilberti are very pretty fish. Here's one noticing the camera:
http://gallery.nanfa...i male.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...camera.jpg.html
...
Yay, my replacement camera charger arrived in the mail!
Here's a picture of what the tank looks like right now. I killed off a lot of the Hemianthus callitrichoides with the algaecide and the blackout period it had during the green water. But it's hardy, so patches are growing back.
http://gallery.nanfa..._09_24.jpg.html
Here's both genders of Elassoma gilberti in the same photograph. The male is being all dominant here; he's the black and blue one. Subdominant males can be light brown with neon blue on their sides, and females are light brown with blue eye semicircles.
http://gallery.nanfa...lberti.jpg.html
These are females
http://gallery.nanfa...lberti.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...lberti.jpg.html
Here's one eating a bloodworm. I bought frozen cubes for $5 for 30 at Petsmart and cut them so the bloodworms aren't so long. They're about the same diameter as the Elassoma's throat, so if they're too long they try to eat them but choke a little. I cut the block up while it's still frozen so the worms get segmented into smaller bits that are easier for the fish to swallow.
http://gallery.nanfa...odworm.jpg.html
Male eating bloodworms. Only males have blue edges on their fins; females won't.
http://gallery.nanfa...dworms.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...worms2.jpg.html
Another photo of a male:
http://gallery.nanfa...formis.jpg.html
Here's a male beginning to color up. They get darker when they want to express their dominance around other fish.
http://gallery.nanfa...lor up.jpg.html
This one's dark because he's trying to express that this is his bloodworm eating territory.
http://gallery.nanfa...ritory.jpg.html
This is what a territory dispute looks like:
http://gallery.nanfa...m land.jpg.html
The winner looks like this:
http://gallery.nanfa...ispute.jpg.html
and the loser gets all clear, like this:
http://gallery.nanfa...te_001.jpg.html
Neither fish gets injured during the territory dispute. They just flap their fins at one another.
Elassoma gilberti are very pretty fish. Here's one noticing the camera:
http://gallery.nanfa...i male.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...camera.jpg.html
Edited by EricaWieser, 25 September 2011 - 02:45 PM.
#683
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 25 September 2011 - 04:14 PM
Erica, you have so much experience observing your fish, that I hesitate to write this. But I have seen considerably more aggressive displays than that from Elassoma. I have seen actual charges and either bites or head butts (too fast for mr to tell). Maybe it is the size of the tank... Your is huge by Elassoma standards... I usually have them in a ten gallon... So yours can more easily, give ground, to the dominant winner. But just wanted to throw the data out there. Elassoma do fight sometimes, and they are lightening fast and actually hit each other when they do.
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#684
Guest_MrCatfish_*
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Posted 25 September 2011 - 05:37 PM
I have witnessed my evergladei in some pretty heated battles over territory. They have led to torn tails and fins.
#685
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 25 September 2011 - 08:25 PM
*nods* I've seen them make much more aggressive movements than are shown in that video, too. I've never seen them take any damage from it, though, except for one male who had a nick in his caudal tail fin. Have you ever seen your Elassoma take serious damage from fighting?Erica, you have so much experience observing your fish, that I hesitate to write this. But I have seen considerably more aggressive displays than that from Elassoma. I have seen actual charges and either bites or head butts (too fast for mr to tell).
Here's a photo of what is about the maximum amount of damage I ever see them take from territory disputes: http://gallery.nanfa...resize.jpg.html
My videos of more aggressive territory disputes:
youtube.com/watch?v=BTjgRWdxgnE
youtube.com/watch?v=LcjnzAU8R-o
Both those males were guarding eggs, so they had to chase the other male out ASAP to protect their young.
My videos of more peaceful territory disputes:
youtube.com/watch?v=pWFQY68WZwI
youtube.com/watch?v=5QNXjZNS5SY
Neither male in the video above was protecting eggs, just a territory and a female. They're less violent when there aren't eggs involved, I think.
Edited by EricaWieser, 25 September 2011 - 08:33 PM.
#686
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 25 September 2011 - 08:25 PM
Do you have any pictures?I have witnessed my evergladei in some pretty heated battles over territory. They have led to torn tails and fins.
Edited by EricaWieser, 25 September 2011 - 08:26 PM.
#687
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 27 September 2011 - 10:36 AM
IME E.zonatum battles cause worse fin & scale damage than evergladei or gilberti battles (in aquaria). Zonatum dont waste much time fluttering and posturing; they just raise their fins, stare threateningly for a couple seconds, then hit hard & fast if the intruder doesnt back off immediately. Dominant females do it too. They also tend to stay hidden more than other Elassoma. Both the cryptic behavior and fast/violent territorial attacks appear to be advantageous to living where predators are abundant. E.zonatum has a much wider range and less specialized habitat than the other pygmies.
#688
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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:32 PM
Hey, so I just recently got an idea. What about an ellasoma tank made out of "one sided" glass? You can see them, but they can't see you.
Edited by Yeahson421, 27 September 2011 - 04:33 PM.
#689
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:50 PM
Why?Hey, so I just recently got an idea. What about an ellasoma tank made out of "one sided" glass? You can see them, but they can't see you.
They don't run away from me any more now that I'm dropping in worms. They've figured out that the big human face outside the glass means food is coming. Now, when I walk up to the tank, they swim forward.
Edited by EricaWieser, 27 September 2011 - 05:50 PM.
#690
Guest_gzeiger_*
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Posted 27 September 2011 - 07:20 PM
Still might be interesting to watch them behave in a more natural manner?
#691
Guest_EricaWieser_*
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Posted 28 September 2011 - 07:32 AM
You could attain that goal for less money by setting up a webcam pointed at the fish tank and leaving it on while you're away if you want.Still might be interesting to watch them behave in a more natural manner?
I could do that sometime in the near future if you want to see the video feed. I've got a webcam on my laptop and Usil shared a link recently to the software you can use to host the video. I'll think about it and see how feasible it is to do that.
Edit: Also, I looked up how one way glass works, and apparently it's a phenomenon that occurs when one side of glass is brightly lit and the other dark. Anyone on the dark side of the glass sees light coming from the light side, while anyone on the light side can't see into the dark side. So you do it every time you watch your fish in a dark room with the tank light turned on. If the difference in lighting is great enough, they can't see you.
Source: http://www.howstuffw...question421.htm
Edited by EricaWieser, 28 September 2011 - 08:17 AM.
#692
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Posted 28 September 2011 - 05:55 PM
Not completely. As said in that article, they also use half silvered glass.Edit: Also, I looked up how one way glass works, and apparently it's a phenomenon that occurs when one side of glass is brightly lit and the other dark. Anyone on the dark side of the glass sees light coming from the light side, while anyone on the light side can't see into the dark side. So you do it every time you watch your fish in a dark room with the tank light turned on. If the difference in lighting is great enough, they can't see you.
Source: http://www.howstuffw...question421.htm
Edited by Yeahson421, 28 September 2011 - 05:56 PM.
#693
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Posted 28 September 2011 - 06:53 PM
That is true.Not completely. As said in that article, they also use half silvered glass.
#694
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Posted 29 September 2011 - 08:58 AM
I was looking at the fish this morning and they are looking particularly fat. I feel like I'm done experimenting with trying to wean them onto flake food. Seeing them this fat makes me realize just how skinny they were while on flakes. They just don't eat them, and I don't suggest that anyone in the future try to feed a pygmy sunfish population with flakes, unless you're willing to let 90% of your population slowly starve to death over the course of nearly half a year. The problem with that is, the 10% that eat the flakes don't eat them enough to spawn or generate eggs. So even that 10% isn't really healthy because it doesn't have the energy available to reproduce. Anyway, long story short, here are the foods I've decided I like:
1. Live grindal worm culture. This is really the easiest thing to do long term. You feed the grindal worms the fish food (pellets, for my worms) and then feed the worms to the fish. The fish actually enjoy eating the grindals, and they get fat, make eggs and claim territories, and can reproduce and be colorful. The cost is only the maintenance cost of the fish food to feed to the worms plus the $12 you pay for the initial innoculum.
2. Frozen bloodworms. They eat these, too. They cost $5 for 30 blocks, which I guess isn't that bad but it's a little bit more expensive than flakes. I like having some in my freezer for when the grindal worm culture needs a break. Only one of my three cultures is producing worms right now because I'm kind of bad at it XD
3. Baby snails.
4. In-tank blackworms. A high population of fish can eat these to extinction easily, though.
But not flakes. They're really only good for feeding the snails and blackworms that are in the tank.
I know a lot of you told me that when I first started this whole experiment with flake food. I'm kind of a stupid person and had to try it for myself to find out flakes don't work, but now I know they don't, and I hope that I've documented this experiment well enough that people won't be tempted to waste their time trying it in the future.
Gross picture of skeletal Elassoma gilberti eating its first grindal worm ever (and possibly its first food in months): http://gallery.nanfa...l worm.jpg.html
It refused to eat flakes.
1. Live grindal worm culture. This is really the easiest thing to do long term. You feed the grindal worms the fish food (pellets, for my worms) and then feed the worms to the fish. The fish actually enjoy eating the grindals, and they get fat, make eggs and claim territories, and can reproduce and be colorful. The cost is only the maintenance cost of the fish food to feed to the worms plus the $12 you pay for the initial innoculum.
2. Frozen bloodworms. They eat these, too. They cost $5 for 30 blocks, which I guess isn't that bad but it's a little bit more expensive than flakes. I like having some in my freezer for when the grindal worm culture needs a break. Only one of my three cultures is producing worms right now because I'm kind of bad at it XD
3. Baby snails.
4. In-tank blackworms. A high population of fish can eat these to extinction easily, though.
But not flakes. They're really only good for feeding the snails and blackworms that are in the tank.
I know a lot of you told me that when I first started this whole experiment with flake food. I'm kind of a stupid person and had to try it for myself to find out flakes don't work, but now I know they don't, and I hope that I've documented this experiment well enough that people won't be tempted to waste their time trying it in the future.
Gross picture of skeletal Elassoma gilberti eating its first grindal worm ever (and possibly its first food in months): http://gallery.nanfa...l worm.jpg.html
It refused to eat flakes.
Edited by EricaWieser, 29 September 2011 - 09:03 AM.
#695
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 29 September 2011 - 09:23 AM
Your observations are extensive, but your opinions and experience are just that... yours. There are several other foods that others have had success with... just want to through those in here in case others are reading and thinking that there are only four options... there are more... including frozen brine, frozen white mosquito larva, live mosquito larva, frozen daphnia, live daphnia, gel based foods, and high quality earthworm flakes (all of these in my experience do get eaten and do sustain and bring Elassoma into breeding condition, although I admit that I usually mix them and do not go with 100% flake).
And last but not least, plants kept in ponds form the backyard, rotated through an Elassoma tank, bring in tons of stuff that I cannot see, but they do see it and eat it and grow and breed. This method (rotating plants from outside to inside every week or so) works very well in the summer (which I am blessed to have for 7-9 months in the south).
And last but not least, plants kept in ponds form the backyard, rotated through an Elassoma tank, bring in tons of stuff that I cannot see, but they do see it and eat it and grow and breed. This method (rotating plants from outside to inside every week or so) works very well in the summer (which I am blessed to have for 7-9 months in the south).
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#696
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Posted 29 September 2011 - 09:39 AM
That's not stupid, that's a skeptical scientific mind looking to challenge what others just accept as 'fact'. You may feel stupid only because it didnt work, but if HAD worked we'd all be amazed. That's how science progresses. A little stubborn refusal to accept conventional wisdom can be a good thing, sometimes.
One other thought about flakes/dry foods: I'm guessing grindals and blackworms probably dont have much Ca or Mg, so if you're keeping snails with Elassoma in soft water then a little dry food might be beneficial for the snails (and thus beneficial to the pygmies).
One other thought about flakes/dry foods: I'm guessing grindals and blackworms probably dont have much Ca or Mg, so if you're keeping snails with Elassoma in soft water then a little dry food might be beneficial for the snails (and thus beneficial to the pygmies).
I feel like I'm done experimenting with trying to wean them onto flake food. Seeing them this fat makes me realize just how skinny they were while on flakes.... I know a lot of you told me that when I first started this whole experiment with flake food. I'm kind of a stupid person and had to try it for myself to find out flakes don't work, but now I know they don't, and I hope that I've documented this experiment well enough that people won't be tempted to waste their time trying it in the future.
#697
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Posted 29 September 2011 - 10:15 AM
Oh yes, there are many more options. I was just listing the things I've tried that have worked. What hasn't worked are frozen tubifex worms (they spit them out) and crushed flakes alone (won't swallow them). The Elassoma gilberti also didn't eat the live adult brine shrimp that I put in the tank; they didn't even seem to notice them. Anyway, I'm sure there are many, many more options out there that will work that I haven't tried yet. I wasn't trying to limit the list to just those four things.Your observations are extensive, but your opinions and experience are just that... yours. There are several other foods that others have had success with... just want to through those in here in case others are reading and thinking that there are only four options... there are more...
Edit:
Thank you, Gerald. You're very nice
I'm not sure how to analyze the mineral content of the worms, but I feed them vitamin enhanced cichlid pellets to try to keep their nutritional value up. The water is very soft (0 DH), so maybe I should start thinking about the Ca and Mg sources for the fish. I'll try adding crushed flake food during worm feedings. I have it on hand anyway for the guppies I'm breeding. The pygmy sunfish do seem to put crushed flakes in their mouths a little bit when there are worms falling through the water at the same time. It's very competitive during feeding time for the first few minutes and they're much less picky about what they eat.
Edited by EricaWieser, 29 September 2011 - 10:19 AM.
#698
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Posted 02 October 2011 - 09:00 AM
The frozen blood worms and live grindal worms have caused the Elassoma gilberti to be in prime breeding form again. The fish look great, and I expect to see fry any day now. Here are some photos.
best photo of the bunch.jpg 165.36KB
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elassoma gilberti male second photo.jpg 145.21KB
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female full of eggs.jpg 138.14KB
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flash elassoma gilberti male.jpg 85.75KB
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best photo of the bunch without flash.jpg 117.82KB
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http://gallery.nanfa... bunch.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa... photo.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...f eggs.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...i male.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa... flash.jpg.html
best photo of the bunch.jpg 165.36KB
0 downloads
elassoma gilberti male second photo.jpg 145.21KB
0 downloads
female full of eggs.jpg 138.14KB
0 downloads
flash elassoma gilberti male.jpg 85.75KB
0 downloads
best photo of the bunch without flash.jpg 117.82KB
0 downloadshttp://gallery.nanfa... bunch.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa... photo.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...f eggs.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...i male.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa... flash.jpg.html
#699
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Posted 03 October 2011 - 08:20 AM
They're officially spawning again. yay The male in the second and fourth photo (same male) has claimed a territory near the base of the hygrophila difformis and spawned there with one of the older females.
I guess this means they'll spawn in both pH 7.5, DH 17-20 water and pH 6.5, DH 0 water, as long as they're well fed. Water parameters don't seem to matter as much as getting them to eat does.
I guess this means they'll spawn in both pH 7.5, DH 17-20 water and pH 6.5, DH 0 water, as long as they're well fed. Water parameters don't seem to matter as much as getting them to eat does.
Edited by EricaWieser, 03 October 2011 - 08:36 AM.
#700
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Posted 04 October 2011 - 07:58 AM
The number of spawning males is up from one to three. There's a large male in the hygrophila difformis and two smaller males in the mid and left side of the tank. I'll report when I see the first fry. I'm going to start adding microworms every day so that the fry will have food once they hatch and want to eat.
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