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Elassoma Gilberti

Started by Guest_Okiimiru_* , Aug 22 2010 01:19 PM

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#601 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 07:54 PM

I was watching the tank just now because I wanted to see what the response of the Elassoma to the automatic fish feeder was. The food particles aren't very much larger than the detritus particles floating in the water, so I didn't think they'd be able to see them, but they can definitely smell them, so I think they're eating. But that's not why I'm laughing. The emergence of the Elassoma from plant cover has caused this very lonely male guppy to do some very odd things. XD He's going into his own 10 gallon tank in a couple hours, after the water settles a little bit (I didn't want to irritate his gills with the fine particles). And he's getting some guppy lady friends in a couple of days in the mail. But until then, these Elassoma are definitely not female guppies, and I don't think they understand what's going on. All the fish involved are a little confused.

Edited by EricaWieser, 29 July 2011 - 07:58 PM.

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#602 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 08:27 PM

Also, I had promised to report on how the Elassoma gilberti liked the various new plant species that I put in, and how the substrate's working. The results are that the plants love this substrate. I had to relocate a strand of Proserpinaca palustris today and when I pulled it out of the soil, it had a ridiculously large root growth for only having been planted for a week. That's why I love not using gravel any more; the plants grow excellent roots.

And as to how the Elassoma are responding to the new environment, here are some pictures of them.

On the North Carolina Walmart Special Kitty cat litter:

elassoma gilberti on north carolinan walmart special kitty substrate resize.jpg 244.16KB 0 downloads
http://gallery.nanfa...strate.jpg.html

A male with blue fins, coloring up behind the Proserpinaca palustris:

male coloring up in the proserpinaca palustris resize.jpg 245.86KB 0 downloads
http://gallery.nanfa...ustris.jpg.html

An Elassoma gilberti enjoying the densely growing Hygrophila difformis:

elassoma gilberti in hygrophila difformis resize.jpg 206.74KB 0 downloads
http://gallery.nanfa...formis.jpg.html

And an Elassoma gilberti hiding from the camera within Hemianthus callitrichoides. Can you find the gilberti?

can you find the gilberti resize.jpg 211.12KB 0 downloads
http://gallery.nanfa...lberti.jpg.html

Here is a zoom in: http://gallery.nanfa...oom in.jpg.html
I'll leave it as a link so as not to spoil it for the people who want to take their time searching the original photo.

Edit:
Oh, by the way, the $5 pair of planting tweezers that I bought arrived recently and I tried them for the first time. They make planting stray bits of H. callitrichoides into the substrate very easy, and I recommend a pair of planting tweezers to anyone else who is aiming for a setup like this. Trimming and shaping the plants is so much easier with tweezers.

Edited by EricaWieser, 29 July 2011 - 08:33 PM.

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#603 Guest_Taari_*

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 08:38 PM

Edit:
Oh, by the way, the $5 pair of planting tweezers that I bought arrived recently and I tried them for the first time. They make planting stray bits of H. callitrichoides into the substrate very easy, and I recommend a pair of planting tweezers to anyone else who is aiming for a setup like this. Trimming and shaping the plants is so much easier with tweezers.

Oh! Where did you find planting tweezers for $5? I've only seen them online for like $14 plus shipping.

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#604 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 11:16 PM

Oh! Where did you find planting tweezers for $5? I've only seen them online for like $14 plus shipping.

On ebay from the seller petgostorenow. The exact cost was $5.99, and the shipping took a couple weeks because it was free speed from Hong Kong. They were a good seller; the tweezers came in a little pouch in new condition, exactly as advertised.

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#605 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 04:24 PM

I removed the male guppy at 4 pm today to his 10 gallon tank. It is now a 55 gallon tank of only Elassoma gilberti.

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#606 Guest_jetajockey_*

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 05:27 PM

Just wanted to add that I tried feeding thawed bloodworms and the pygmy sunfish are eating them readily. they are a little big for the juveniles but I've counted several with a bloodworm hanging out of their mouth.

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#607 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 12:34 AM

*nods* Yup. They'd probably breed well on thawed bloodworms. They'd eat a lot and fatten up. That's my guess, at least, even though I've never fed them frozen foods.

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#608 Guest_jetajockey_*

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 09:30 AM

*nods* Yup. They'd probably breed well on thawed bloodworms. They'd eat a lot and fatten up. That's my guess, at least, even though I've never fed them frozen foods.

I was surprised that they took them so readily. I've caught a few nibbling at flakes but they do not eat them with gusto like they do something that is wiggling, so it was a surprise.

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#609 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 10:09 AM

Bloodworms are found in some abundance in Elassoma's native habitat. It's likely they have an eye for the shape and color, since they really wiggle very little unless you disturb them.

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#610 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 07:59 PM

Bloodworms are found in some abundance in Elassoma's native habitat. It's likely they have an eye for the shape and color, since they really wiggle very little unless you disturb them.

That makes sense.

Update:
The E. gilberti are fattening up on frequent feedings of crushed flake food. Their bellies, which were skinniest when I kept them in the breathing bag for days and didn't feed them, are rounding off again. I hope to be able to report spawning behavior soon.

Edited by EricaWieser, 31 July 2011 - 08:05 PM.

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#611 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 01:13 PM

My intention was to have the next update be a picture of a male in breeding colors, but they're so shy! Every time I approach the fish tank with the camera they blanch out again. So anyway, Update: Some males are perking up into dark grey and shiny blue colors. No spawning yet, but they're not doing nothing, either.

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#612 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 03:22 PM

"Here comes that B$#@*& again that cut off our live food. Hide, everyone. No more pics 'til we get worms!"

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#613 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 08:22 PM

"Here comes that B$#@*& again that cut off our live food. Hide, everyone. No more pics 'til we get worms!"

lol that's probably what they're thinking.

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#614 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 12:27 PM

Update:
I cut the top few millimeters off of the filter sponge to get an inch wide, four inch long strip of sponge. Then I used needle and thread and permanently wrapped it around the filter intake. Now the Elassoma won't get stuck on the filter intake any more. ( Earlier I watched one male swim by it, get a little bit too close and get drawn to it like a magnet, and his side get stuck to it for a second. He freaked out and swam away. Now that won't happen again. )
Picture of filter intake covered with sponge: http://gallery.nanfa... cover.jpg.html

Also, due to the removal of the activated carbon and because chunks of wood make up a large portion of the substrate, the water is now very, very yellow. It's like tea. There are also a lot of fine particles floating in the water that refuse to settle out even with no current. I don't think the fish care, but the camera can't pick up the fish at the back of the tank because of the haze, so it bothers me. I ordered a Python No Spill Clean And Fill® after Taari recommended them and I did some research, so hopefully once it arrives I'll be able to do some water changes and get the water clear again. Current photos of the fish look like this: http://gallery.nanfa...assoma.jpg.html

No fry yet, and I still can't visually confirm spawning (haven't seen a courtship dance). I'm not worried yet, though, because as the plants grow in more and more males are claiming territories. They're at least on the right track.

Edited by EricaWieser, 06 August 2011 - 12:29 PM.

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#615 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 06 August 2011 - 03:40 PM

( Earlier I watched one male swim by it, get a little bit too close and get drawn to it like a magnet, and his side get stuck to it for a second. He freaked out and swam away. Now that won't happen again. )

Probably wouldn't have happened again anyway... at least not to that fish... remember, these are the fish that moved 600 miles south in a plastic bag (also proving that they are smart... they moved back south), survived and thrived on the flake food famine, and not fast the filter intake of death... these are the tough Elassoma (tough for little guys that are only an inch long... but yeah... tough).

...the water is now very, very yellow. It's like tea.

Congratulations, you have recreated their native habitat...!

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#616 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 10:36 PM

...these are the tough Elassoma...

They can apparently survive mild nitrite poisoning, too.

I tested the water just now because a patch of Hemianthus callitrichoides had yellowed, and the nitrite was nonzero. It wasn't in the "danger" zone yet, just in the "mild stress" zone, but I did a 1/3 water change anyway. On a 55 gallon tank. With a cup, since the Python No Spill Clean and Fill® has not arrived yet. I wish I had not removed the filter.

Note: It is possible that the automatic fish feeder has been misfiring. It did not go off at its appointed time (I stood there and waited for it) and once it went off hours away from its appointed time while I happened to be in the room with it. I don't think it matters because it only had enough food in it for that week I was on vacation and very little extra.

I would also like to report a mild diatom outbreak (are they diatoms if they cover the substrate, too? It seems like it, but I've never seen them in person before). The internet assures me that this is normal for tanks with new substrates, and the mild increase in KH, pH (up to 7.2), and particulate haze of what is possibly silicate back up the diagnosis of diatoms. Image of 'diatoms?': http://gallery.nanfa...er/055.JPG.html That patch of slime is thickest where the 10 gallon filter output is. It's been around for about three days now. It's possible the Elassoma have been nibbling it. I've seen them lunge and grab, but maybe they got something else, or maybe they spit it out. Very strange.

As soon as the Python arrives it's 10% daily water changes until all of these horrifying occurrences stop and the tank goes back to normal. I bet the person who recommended I buy an ammonia test kit is feeling smug right now. They should be. It's hard to buy one to test your water when you realize something's wrong at 11 pm.

Edited by EricaWieser, 06 August 2011 - 10:47 PM.

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#617 Guest_Taari_*

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 12:07 AM

Yeah, brown diatoms are normal growing on anything, including substrate. A week ago my entire tank was brown looking because I had so many diatoms. I tore the tank apart, scrubbed all the sides and put it back together, so far, only a teensy bit of diatoms have come back, but now I have some weird stringy spiderweb algae flowing in longs strings off my driftwood >.< I also stopped dosing phosphate in my tank.

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#618 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 10:52 AM

Yeah, brown diatoms are normal growing on anything, including substrate. A week ago my entire tank was brown looking because I had so many diatoms. I tore the tank apart, scrubbed all the sides and put it back together, so far, only a teensy bit of diatoms have come back, but now I have some weird stringy spiderweb algae flowing in longs strings off my driftwood >.< I also stopped dosing phosphate in my tank.

Can fish eat diatoms? I mean, I can tell the Elassoma have been thinking about it, because they're really hungry and at this point they're willing to consider anything as food, but... do diatoms have any nutritional value? Should I be encouraging their growth or trying to wipe them out? Right now I'm doing neither, I'm just ignoring them, but again, this is a new experience for me and I'm not sure what to make of it.

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#619 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 02:55 PM

Just did another 30% water change. Nitrite is at 1 mg/L, which isn't a serious stress on the fish, but it is a problem that there is a nitrite concentration at all. The plants should be keeping up with it and they're not. I'm going to continue to monitor it and do more water changes if necessary.

The pH is back between 6.8 and 7.2 where it was when the tank was first set up, and the KH is back between 0 and 40 ppm from its elevated position around 80-ish. For those reasons, I think I have removed a lot of the silicate particulates that I think were driving the diatom growth.

If anyone ever asks me in the future if I recommend Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix, I'll say no. I'm sticking with Special Kitty cat litter in the future. Add it, wait for a half day for it to settle, done. There's none of this silicate particulate and yellow water nonsense. The 10 gallon for the guppies is rigged up with just the Special Kitty and it's working beautifully.

Maybe once the tank is clear I'll get a chance to take a picture of the Elassoma gilberti tank. The plants are much larger now, and with the exception of the Hemianthus callitrichoides, they're all looking very healthy. I don't know what's up with the HC; maybe a lack of light from the yellow water? Maybe it's sensitive to nitrites? If anyone has any experience with it, I'd appreciate your opinion.

And lastly, the fish. They're doing well. They don't appreciate me lowering and raising the water level on them, so they're hiding right now. I haven't seen any dead ones, who might have taken ill because of the mild nitrite concentration. Then again I didn't really expect to; 1 ppm stresses fish but rarely kills them. Hopefully the water will be clear soon and I'll be able to share more photos of the gray and blue shiny males.

Edited by EricaWieser, 07 August 2011 - 02:57 PM.

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#620 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 12:50 PM

The nitrite readings strike me as rather odd. Is it possible that by using your automatic feeder you are overfeeding? Alternatively, I have heard rumours about many nitrite test kits giving false positives - you might want to research the chemistry of that a little.

Regarding the diatoms, switching back to cat litter probably won't solve the problem. It is my understanding that cat litters have very high amounts of silicates - once again, you might want to check on that. But with any bloom, if you sit tight and wait, it may settle down.

(On a side notes, I wouldn't have said that the litter you used "worked beautifully". If I remember, you weren't really happy with how your tank looked when you tore it down. I've found that no substrate is going to be all things to all people, and few can be all things to even one person.)