Elassoma Gilberti

Sometimes they're dancing to attract a female. This guy's just dancing from the pure joy of eating live grindal worms.

Edited by EricaWieser, 23 January 2012 - 08:19 PM.

Oh, I had forgotten that I took these photos. These are from a week ago, when the sunlight was coming in from the window across the room as it does every afternoon, striking the tank just right.

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http://gallery.nanfa...nlight.jpg.html
Yes, that is the same male who had the mysterious tail color 'hemorrhage'. He's still kicking, still occupying the exact same clump of plants, actually. Once they establish their territories they really don't change them, The same males are found in the same spot day after day, never straying. Well, until I move the plants around too drastically, and then they all freak out and clump in the corner together. But yup, usually the same spot. There have actually been a few females I've seen that have held territories. The anubias leaf dark female died of old age (I think) a few months ago. Made me sad. But one of the new fry is looking to resemble her quite a lot; she's dark and she's holding her own land unlike the other females, who flit in and out of neutral space. Interestingly, both dominant and subdominant females seem to breed successfully with the males. Anyway,

More pictures:
http://gallery.nanfa...15_002.JPG.html
http://gallery.nanfa...04_002.JPG.html
http://gallery.nanfa...05_002.JPG.html
There are more but I'm not sure how much the gallery will hold? Does it have a maximum size? I'm worried that I should be more conservative; I've already used up more than half of my posting image space. Anybody know any details about the NANFA gallery?

As to how the tank's doing, it's going well. The first male from this first batch of babies might (?) have colored up. I can't tell for certain that it's a fry now that it's approaching the size of the other fish. All I know is that there is suddenly a new male who is a lot smaller than his fellows. This older generation is approaching being very old, so it'll be nice to have some youngins around to be really fertile and lay lots of eggs.

There are more but I'm not sure how much the gallery will hold? Does it have a maximum size? I'm worried that I should be more conservative; I've already used up more than half of my posting image space. Anybody know any details about the NANFA gallery?

Still a concern. I posted smaller images to the gallery because I don't know how much space it has.
http://gallery.nanfa...resize.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...g down.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...maller.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...resize.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...t size.jpg.html

Update:
The fry are growing up so fast! They are very cute. Soon they will be breeding age (I can already tell what gender they are) When that happens, I'm buying a vending license from the state and will start shipping Elassoma to people. This older generation is very old, though, so I want there to be continuous fry production before I start shipping fish away.
But Elassoma really do deserve to be more popular as aquarium fish than they are, so if I can share them with people I will.

I got concerned that there might not be a lot of females because of a recent topic about uneven sex ratios in Elassoma, so I sat by the tank yesterday for a while with food and counted. There are definitely lots of fat females in there; they're just slower to come out of the plants than the males are. The good news is that they are all very plump and have lots of eggs inside them. There do seem to be slightly more males, though. This could just be me worrying too much, though.

Soon I am going to start feeding the tank with two new foods. One is frozen mosquito larvae, which I have been told is very likely to be accepted well by the Elassoma gilberti. The second is Ken's Premium Golden Pearls. I'm going to add them at the same time as other foods, and hopefully they'll get eaten. I don't know. I'll post the results here after I try it. Hopefully I will get pictures or maybe video.

Also, I have come to the conclusion that pygmy sunfish need to be fed twice a day. With the older adults it's not as big of an issue, but now that the fry are juveniles and are emerging from the plants, I can see the physical concavity to their stomachs if I wait too long to feed them. It's not a big deal with the super tiny fry, who have live wiggly microworms at all times to eat, but right after they grow too large to seriously eat microworms any more, they're very dependent on the foods I feed the adults. (Which is currently thawed frozen bloodworms and live grindal worms). If I only feed them once a day the juveniles look just plain concave So, twice a day feedings.

Oh yes, and I have started routinely cutting the bloodworms in half as they thaw off of the frozen cube. The juveniles aren't able to eat whole bloodworms. It helps to, holding the cube with 10 inch planting tweezers in one hand and holding a pair of scissors in the other hand, swirl the frozen cube in the water for a few seconds and cut whatever worm pieces come off. The juveniles can swallow these smaller pieces.

And finally, I figured out something about the frozen tubifex worms that are still in the freezer because the Elassoma gilberti won't eat them. What have I learned? That guppies aren't picky. Also, if you don't shake the cube about in the water as it thaws the long stringy tubifex worm bodies stay intact more and the Elassoma are more likely to sort of kind of eat them. But it's amazing how much they disdain them. The 'canary in the coal mine' guppy adores them though.
I don't know if it's because he's solid white in color or maybe because he's a kind, gimpy little thing, but the Elassoma let him swim right up next to them. Usually if another Elassoma approaches them, it's a threat, and they flee. But the guppy can go so far as basically sitting on them and they don't react. I would recommend solid white guppies as tank mates for Elassoma. They're definitely useful for showing symptoms first before Elassoma will.

Edited by EricaWieser, 16 February 2012 - 09:42 AM.

I sometimes use frozen mosquito larvae when I don't have any living foods available. My E. evergladei really like them, never the less E. zonatum and E. okefenokee have more problems to deal with them. I don't know why, but that's what I observe. Maybe you will have more luck with your gilbertis.

I sometimes use frozen mosquito larvae when I don't have any living foods available. My E. evergladei really like them, never the less E. zonatum and E. okefenokee have more problems to deal with them. I don't know why, but that's what I observe. Maybe you will have more luck with your gilbertis.

The store is out of stock
What do you mean by 'problems'? The fish can't swallow them because the larvae is too big? Or the fish don't like the taste of the larvae?

I tried to do a count to see if there are an even number of males and females in the tank. For some fish, like the dominant males, it's easy to tell what gender they are because they're black and blue and whatnot. But a lot of the submissive males, it's a toss up whether or not they're male or female. I guess that's the point; they're trying not to be too 'male-ish' near the dominant males, so they don't get their butt kicked. But it's a little confusing to the humans who are trying to do a gender count. So, I sat there for a while and took some photos and figured I would share my conclusions with other people. Maybe you're trying to figure out what gender your Elassoma gilberti are, too. So, maybe this will help.

The following pictures are of what I think are males:
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http://gallery.nanfa...dangle.jpg.html

The following are females:
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 female2.jpg   93.59KB   0 downloads
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 female5.jpg   112.34KB   0 downloads
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 female6.jpg   100.68KB   0 downloads
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 female7.jpg   83.42KB   0 downloads
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Now this is a photo of a male and a female.
 maleandfemale1.jpg   100.5KB   2 downloads
http://gallery.nanfa...emale1.jpg.html

Based on what I saw (which is probably not all of the fish in the tank. Not everyone comes out of the plants) there are indeed a few more males than females. It's not quite 1 in 3 fish is female, but it's not 50/50 either. Maybe the females are hiding in the plants. Maybe I killed off half the females with my horrible "Let's feed them only flake food for months" experiment (where indeed some fish did starve to death. Probably a lot of females). I think that out of the young ones that are just now sexing out, I think they're 50/50. But it's so hard to tell... I don't know. Without draining the tank and lifting fish out one by one, this whole thing is all just guesswork. But I feel a little bit better posting these pictures, because maybe somebody will get something out of the hour I just spent counting fish.

I think you are correct on the sexes.

I got in contact with my local Wildlife Department and asked them about buying a fish vending license. I explained that I had guppies and Elassoma gilberti, a species of pygmy sunfish from Florida and Georgia (not North Carolina, where I live). I said that I wanted to buy a license so that I could sell my fish to other people online, but I wasn't sure whether or not the fish vending license applied to me. The guy was really nice and said he'd take a couple days and research it.

He called me back today and explained that I do not need a fish vendor's license to sell my fish. Guppies and other tropical fish are considered non-invasive because of their tendency to not survive over winter. And there are three criteria that my pygmy sunfish meet that make them legal to sell. First, they do not occur in North Carolina. Second, they were obtained by me from another person not from the wild(thank you, Gerald!), and my stock has been born and raised in an aquarium. And third, they are being sold not with the intention of stocking ponds, but for personal use in the home aquaria. I asked him about what to do if pygmy sunfish are ever reclassified into Centrarchidae, and he said to call him back because game fish operate with different rules.

So. I'm going to go list some of my Elassoma gilberti on aquabid. Hopefully I'll be a permanent vendor from here on out, making native fish more available to people

Edit: Done! I started the bidding at $1, no reserve price.
http://www.aquabid.c...tive

Edited by EricaWieser, 27 February 2012 - 06:10 PM.

Thanks for clarifying. That's pretty much what I've "understood" from bits and pieces of info I've gleaned from conversations with WRC staff over the years, that propagating and selling non-game aquarium fish is not subject to the same rules as fish sold for stocking fishing ponds. Anyway I'm glad you got a direct and specific answer. Some of us have been hesitant to open that can of worms.

I would love to bid! Sadly, I still need to setup a tank for them, so it will be a while. Oh well, I definitely want to be sure the cycle is completely done before I put anything in the tank.

I would love to bid! Sadly, I still need to setup a tank for them, so it will be a while. Oh well, I definitely want to be sure the cycle is completely done before I put anything in the tank.

Everyone,
Please relax on the tank cycling issue.

A new tank, with new water, will be ready for fish in 24 hours
just by using a sponge filter taken from your other tank.

Oh, I know that. I simply don't have any sponges to spare at the moment.

it is quite interesting to me that guppies don't count as potential invasors. here in germany, were i think it is colder in winter than where you live there are some wild guppy populations. the most popular one exists in the erft, a small stream that gets input from small waters warmed up by industry. there guppies survive the frost period without problems.

WOW! Your listing on Aquabid has gotten really high up there! Looks like I wont be getting any anytime soon!

So, bad news but I learned something. The person who won the auction lived in a place where the expected highs were in the 70's and the lows were in the 40's. I was very uncertain about whether or not to use a heat pack, but eventually decided to because Elassoma gilberti are from Florida and temperatures in the 80's might be tolerated better than temperatures in the 40's. Well, it was the wrong decision. The fish arrived dead, cooked to death. I am going to send a second shipment to the auction winner, this time without a heat pack. Hopefully by posting this here, if anyone else has the question of whether or not to use a heat pack for pygmy sunfish, now there is a first hand report saying it's safer not to. The box was highly insulated with an inch thick of styrofoam, so maybe that was part of the problem. I don't know. Next time, no heat pack.

It makes me really sad to think that those fat, happy fish that I sent off to breed a new colony died, roasted to death. I might have nightmares tonight thinking about it.

Edited by EricaWieser, 15 March 2012 - 10:00 PM.

Hey Erica. Sorry to hear that. I ship a lot of fish and inverts (close to 3 dozen packages this year already) and always with a heat pack if the temps are below 50 anywhere along the trip. I insulate the boxes with 1" styro as well. I use the 72 hour packs as they have a lower maximum temp, but have used the 40 hour packs without any issues as well. I also put a few layers of insulation, paper, or something between the bags and the heat pack itself.

I have had a few DOA packages but they are very rare and I usually chalk it up to mishandling by the post office. So personally I wouldn't be so quick to blame the heat pack for the result.

Hey Erica. Sorry to hear that. I ship a lot of fish and inverts (close to 3 dozen packages this year already) and always with a heat pack if the temps are below 50 anywhere along the trip. I insulate the boxes with 1" styro as well. I use the 72 hour packs as they have a lower maximum temp, but have used the 40 hour packs without any issues as well. I also put a few layers of insulation, paper, or something between the bags and the heat pack itself.

I have had a few DOA packages but they are very rare and I usually chalk it up to mishandling by the post office. So personally I wouldn't be so quick to blame the heat pack for the result.

I used a 72 hour heat pack and lots of insulation as well, and similarly have never had problems with the heat pack in the past. Is it possible the person is scamming me? They said that there was nothing left of the fish when I asked for a picture, and gave me an image of just empty water with the single plant stem I shipped with the fish. There would be spines or something left of the fish, right? They were only in the mail for two or three days. And this picture isn't taken of the breather bag I shipped them in... Here, here's how the conversation played out:

"Hi Erica,
I've got some bad news. All of the fish arrived DOA. I knew something was wrong
when I opened the box. The box was like an oven. A soupy bag of water and a sprig of coontail.
There literally is nothing left of the fish. Water temp was 95.
We've had record temps here in the MidWest. Considering these are native fish I probably wouldn't have used the heat pack.
Please let me know how you want to proceed."

My response:
"Ah, drat. I had serious thoughts about whether or not to use that heat pack. The lows in your area were in the 40's so eventually I decided for it. They are native fish, yes, but they're from Florida. Temperatures in the 90's are better tolerated than temperatures in the 40's.

If you don't mind, could you take a picture of the 'soup' and send it to me? I know it's depressing but I'd like to see what happened. After you do that I will send more early next week. Sending more tomorrow on a Friday would result in a layover on Sunday as the mail takes a day off. Shipping on Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday is the safest.

From,
Erica"

Their response:
"Hi Erica,
I can send a picture, but there's really nothing to see. The little guys just got cooked.
Let me see what I can do."

Then they sent me this picture:

Image:
 photo.JPG   111.54KB   0 downloads

I would feel like a total fool if they were scamming me to get me to send them more fish. Also it is unnecessary for them to cheat me; two pairs are fully sufficient for starting your Elassoma population and you really don't need more than that. There's no reason to get sent a second shipment of fish if the first arrived alive and well. They have such an exponential population increase once they breed.

Now that I think about it's really suspicious that there's not corpses left... Dangit, maybe I'm being cheated. Any input from you all would be really, really appreciated. I've never killed fish by cooking them before, so I don't know what happens to their corpses. I'm not actually too sure how Elassoma decompose, since I spend all my time with them in their living state. Is it reasonable for there not to be any bodies in the water that arrived after 2-3 days in shipping? Or is this guy scamming me?

Edited by EricaWieser, 16 March 2012 - 12:42 AM.

Uh...yeah honestly that sounds kinda fishy to me. I always require a photo of the dead fish in the sealed bag to keep for my records and also to verify that the fish is actually DOA'ed. Sometimes I even mark my bags to make sure that they haven't been tampered with.

i can tell you that I've had some fish cook (always during the summertime) and the result is a bag full of slurry, kinda looks like a bacterial bloom, and there is always a corpse, it's not like they eat one another. Even still, if it 'melted', there'd be some remnant.


I don't see how a fish would disintegrate into nothing, worst case scenario is the fish got too hot (100 degrees-ish) but that's not enough to make a fish dissolve. It's not something I've ever seen in my experience with shipping, but I could be wrong.

Now, onto the meat of the issue. If it were me personally, knowing that the auction went really well in your favor (I think the bidding went way higher than the actual fish value, but that's another subject in itself), I'd just bite it this time and send another package. And in the future, have a nice little writeup with you DOA policy on it that you send to every person you are about to ship to. Explain it in detail what you expect from them in the case of a DOA and make it clear that if they don't follow through that you will not refund or replace the shipment. I would send this to them personally, since many people just kinda breeze over it when reading auctions.

My personal policy is that in order for me to replace DOAs, I require a clear photo of each DOA inside the sealed bag within 2 hours of delivery time. The first part helps prove their case that the fish is indeed DOA. The bag being sealed still helps prove that they haven't just given you a photo of a different deceased fish, or that they didn't just make a huge blunder acclimating. The 2 hours within delivery time is to help avoid the fairly common occurrence of a package sitting on someone's porch in the snow/sun all day and then they get it and tell you that you did something wrong.

This helps negate some scamming, although it's still possible, but still, if someone is gonna scam from me I will make them work for it.


One other thing you can do is google around for this guys handle/email and see if he's a member of any forums. If he/she happens to be active somewhere, you might get a little more info on them. I remember a while back this happened to a guy who claimed he had a DOA shrimp shipment, the seller found where he posted pics of his new shrimp on another forum and then subsequently shut him down, lol.

Edited by jetajockey, 16 March 2012 - 01:51 AM.

Effect of a heat pack depends on size of box, heat loss through the box, and volume of water. Maybe you had too little volume of water for the total amount of heat released. Also, using heat packs with breathing bags is risky becuase the heat packs consume oxygen in the box surrouning the bags, so fish might have suffocated before they cooked. I do the "use more water" strategy and skip the heat packs. Using Priority Mail for a cross-country shipment, each additional pound of water costs about $1. to $3. depending on how far it's going. And more water volume helps with water quality as well as thermal stability.