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Elassoma Gilberti

Started by Guest_Okiimiru_* , Aug 22 2010 01:19 PM

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#801 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 10:36 AM

Now, onto the meat of the issue. If it were me personally, knowing that the auction went really well in your favor (I think the bidding went way higher than the actual fish value, but that's another subject in itself), I'd just bite it this time and send another package. And in the future, have a nice little writeup with you DOA policy on it that you send to every person you are about to ship to. Explain it in detail what you expect from them in the case of a DOA and make it clear that if they don't follow through that you will not refund or replace the shipment. I would send this to them personally, since many people just kinda breeze over it when reading auctions.

My personal policy is that in order for me to replace DOAs, I require a clear photo of each DOA inside the sealed bag within 2 hours of delivery time. The first part helps prove their case that the fish is indeed DOA. The bag being sealed still helps prove that they haven't just given you a photo of a different deceased fish, or that they didn't just make a huge blunder acclimating. The 2 hours within delivery time is to help avoid the fairly common occurrence of a package sitting on someone's porch in the snow/sun all day and then they get it and tell you that you did something wrong.

This helps negate some scamming, although it's still possible, but still, if someone is gonna scam from me I will make them work for it.

I agree with you; I also think that the fish sold for way more than I would consider its value. And I have no problem with sending them more if the fish actually did perish and it was my fault; they certainly have paid for that. So even if it sounds a bit sketchy (there being no corpses and all) I am going to send them more fish.

I just wish they weren't such a jerk about it. It causes me real emotional pain to think that the fish I sent off are dead now; I don't send away culls. I pick the best and brightest to start a new colony, some of my fattest females. Thinking that they didn't make it makes me really upset. And there's no advantage to getting four pairs of fish instead of two; either will be enough to start the exponential population growth that will set up your permanent Elassoma colony.

Thank you for your advice on the DOA policy. I will add that to my auction, and state that people must take pictures of the fish in the bag that they were shipped in. I really don't want to be told that any more of my wonderful fish are dead, especially when they're not.

*gets ready to send more fish on Monday*

Edited by EricaWieser, 16 March 2012 - 10:37 AM.

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#802 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 10:39 AM

Using Priority Mail for a cross-country shipment, each additional pound of water costs about $1. to $3. depending on how far it's going.

I do use priority mail. I like the 2-3 day speed of it, and have only ever had lost or super delayed shipments twice before (both times the week before Christmas, so sort of my fault for timing it).

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#803 Guest_jetajockey_*

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:21 PM

I do use priority mail. I like the 2-3 day speed of it, and have only ever had lost or super delayed shipments twice before (both times the week before Christmas, so sort of my fault for timing it).

The water volume thing is true as well. For most of my packages I keep them under 2 lbs including heat pack, since it keeps costs down. It ends up being 6-8 oz of water if I have to put a heat pack in.

One other option to consider is just going with flat rate, that way you can put as much water in there as you want. They have some square-ish medium flat rate boxes that work well for this, and your postage cost is only around $11.

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#804 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:40 PM

*gets ready to send more fish on Monday*

Sent!
We live, we learn. I updated my new auction's text to have a DOA policy on it. Thank you everyone for the advice

Update on the tank of Elassoma gilberti:
The dominant pygmy sunfish are happily dancing around their territories. I think maybe they are a little overcrowded. There are hordes of submissive males on the substrate, all just chillin' there, not able to claim a spot in the plants as territory because there are already dominant males there. Maybe in the wild there is a significant death rate among the colorful males, and then submissive males are able to move into the vacated territory? I guess that makes sense. My tank has no predators to pick off the too-colorful males, so there is a long queue in the line waiting for territory to open up.

I am also starting to think that there are pros and cons to Hemianthus callitrichoides . The grindal worms are better able to hide under its leaves than they are on open substrate. But I guess that was the purpose of it after all, to give fry a chance to venture forth into the main tank space under cover of the H. callitrichoides leaves. I guess I should have anticipated that the grindal worms would be able to hide there, too.

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#805 Guest_jetajockey_*

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:54 PM

One thing I've noticed is that in the wild they are rarely ever densely populated. I may get a couple in one swipe of the net, but it's not often, and it's not unusual to collect only a handful in a large area of dense vegetation.

I did notice that in the deeper vegetated waters they are stacked in more densely but it may be that they are staking out territories in different parts of the water column.

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#806 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:35 PM

I did notice that in the deeper vegetated waters they are stacked in more densely but it may be that they are staking out territories in different parts of the water column.

I've seen them do that too when I let the plants grow tall.

Here, I took this video January 1st 2011. The Ceratophyllum demersum (coontail/hornwort) was only halfway to the top of the 55 gallon tank, so you can see they all claimed territories in a row. The plants weren't yet tall enough to stack territories one on top of another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n39XoreGkg

This video on February 13th 2011 shows the territory held by a male right under some fluffy floating plant roots at the top of the Ceratophyllum demersum. After more plant tissue was added, he was able to stake out his own space up there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF7uOcfwhJA
At that point there was one male at the top of the plants and one at the base. Both courted females.
And actually there was one, a big one, in the back of the tank because it was right in front of the window and there was light there. It's kind of funny that the prime spot was the one that was never bothered with a human face. I guess the fish were annoyed by me XD

So yeah, I agree. It seems like once the plants reach two feet tall, two dominant males might each be able to hold a territory. As far as I've observed they seem to have a territory of a cubic foot of volume.

It's also interesting to go back and see how sparsely populated the tank was back then. There were maybe five, six males. Now there are dozens. There's definitely a different dynamic going on in my tank now. I think overpopulation curbs breeding. Which is sad, because I love their spawning dances.

Edited by EricaWieser, 19 March 2012 - 11:50 PM.

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#807 Guest_jetajockey_*

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 04:53 AM

I think you may be on to something with the overpopulation bit. I think it works the same way in pet stores, the stock is often so dense that the fish don't have much chance to stake out territory and become aggressive with one another.

I had a breeding group of celestial pearl danios that did that also, the males would often be too busy flashing at each other and doing circles around one another that one lucky male off to the side of the group would get in on all the spawning females.

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#808 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 20 March 2012 - 04:53 PM

One thing I've noticed is that in the wild they are rarely ever densely populated. I may get a couple in one swipe of the net, but it's not often, and it's not unusual to collect only a handful in a large area of dense vegetation.

Agree... When we collected them in the Okefenokee, we were using dip nets from underneath... lift up a bunch of vegetation and find the fish in it... there was usually onlyu about one male every 2 to 3 feet... with 3 or 4 females in the same space... I think in the wild the males are more stationary (staking out a piece of vegetation as Erica sees in her tank)... and the females roam about a bit more in an out of territories.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#809 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:18 PM

What's up with this guy? He kind of collides with the female he's dancing at.
Is he trying to spawn? Attack? Is he hyper and clumsy?

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#810 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:48 PM

He would not be the first male that was simply so excited that he could not control himself...

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#811 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 07:38 PM

Current photo of the 55 gallon Elassoma gilberti tank.

55 gallon tank as of 2012_04_03_resize.jpg 108.66KB 1 downloads
http://gallery.nanfa..._04_03.jpg.html

Today I ordered a red tiger lotus from Aquatic Magic (aqmagic.com is their website, but actually off of aquabid for the free shipping they offer on their auctions there). They're a good company and I'm a repeat customer. I'm thinking that the Elassoma gilberti will enjoy hiding under its giant leaves. I think it's going to go in the right front corner of the tank as a stand-alone plant. Something about the flow of water or lighting or something is making the algae in that corner win versus the Hemianthus callitrichoides, so it wouldn't hurt to mix things up a bit and say that neither get the spot. In the past when I had anubias, the Elassoma really loved hanging out under the broad leaves. So I think they'll like the lotus.

Hopefully it does okay; green color seems to be dominating over red color in my tank even though a lot of these species are supposed to be red. Maybe I need to change my bulbs? There's a fine layer of algae coating everything so I'm afraid to leave them on for more hours per day. I dunno.

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#812 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:59 PM

I went to a local fish club meeting recently and met someone who has pygmy sunfish as well (zonatum). I told them how I'm not getting as many fry as I used to and they expressed surprise that I used to get fry at the rate I did. They have just pygmy sunfish in a 65 gallon tank and get maybe three fry a year. Wow. So, in an effort to get some more fry going here, I'm going to stick a male and three females in a 10 gallon tank for a week and then take them out. Maybe they will leave babies behind as they go. If there are lots of fry in the 10 gallon and the number of fry in the 55 remains very low, then I'll know that they've been eating their babies in the 55.

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#813 Guest_nkambae_*

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 02:00 AM

Just a word to the wise. Some Aquaticmagic shipments have been stopped, inspected, and confiscated by customs.

http://www.aquaboard...ht=aquaticmagic

Another option for high quality, inexpensive plants is buying from or trading with other hobbyists in your area. My tanks are stuffed full of plants obtained (mainly) from aquarists in my local aquarium club. You can also try some of the dedicated planted tank forums too. Aquatic Plant Central and The Planted Tank are a couple of excellent options. That is if you hadn't already come across them.

I have read through this somewhat lengthy thread because I too am interested in trying some of the pygny sunfishes. I have learned much from reading about your experiences with these cool little fish. Keep up the good work.

stu

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#814 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:22 AM

Just a word to the wise. Some Aquaticmagic shipments have been stopped, inspected, and confiscated by customs.

http://www.aquaboard...ht=aquaticmagic

Another option for high quality, inexpensive plants is buying from or trading with other hobbyists in your area. My tanks are stuffed full of plants obtained (mainly) from aquarists in my local aquarium club. You can also try some of the dedicated planted tank forums too. Aquatic Plant Central and The Planted Tank are a couple of excellent options. That is if you hadn't already come across them.

I have read through this somewhat lengthy thread because I too am interested in trying some of the pygny sunfishes. I have learned much from reading about your experiences with these cool little fish. Keep up the good work.

stu

Thanks

I hope that doesn't happen. I've ordered from them in the past and they had the little customs stamp on the package that said it was approved. Maybe something sketchy is going on? I dunno. I did check my local fishy friends first, but nympaea is understandably a plant that most people don't propagate. It's different from your standard "Cut the stem in half and plant the top" sort of propagation, so it's rarer to find someone breeding it. Nobody had any little baby nympaeas.

Edited by EricaWieser, 07 April 2012 - 10:27 AM.

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#815 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:35 AM

Update:
I put the guppies in the 55 gallon tank with the majority of the Elassoma gilberti and put two males and three females in the 10 gallon. These guppies are annoying the Elassoma gilberti.

I guess my overall plan for breeding solid white guppies is sound because their father, a solid white platinum albino, didn't annoy the Elassoma and both swam around one another no problem. But these five guppies are genotypically half albino half non albino, half gold half gray, so phenotypically they look gray. Their tinted dark gray scales are similar to the dominance colored dark scales of the Elassoma, so now the Elassoma are freaking out and all hiding in the plants

Oh well. The next generation of guppies will express my breeding program's goal phenotype of solid gold (non-melanin tinted) so hopefully the Elassoma will treat the final platinum guppy phenotype like they did their grandfather and completely ignore them. But that will be in one guppy generation. As it is right now I can't see my pygmy sunfish anymore because they're all hiding.

The two male Elassoma gilberti in the 10 gallon are establishing territories. The tank is like chock full of plants so there is enough room for both to have their space without being able to see one another. Hopefully this way if one is sterile or just not in the mood, the fertile female(s) will be able to breed with the backup male. I'll put them back in the main tank in a week.

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#816 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:15 AM

What I do is take a stick or stiff tubing and push the moss around once a week or so. Then I can see the fry dash by when the moss is moved, long before they're big enough to see when sitting still. When fry are present, move the breeders to another tank.

They dont generally eat their own kind, but the big kids intimidate the little kids to death, so the end result is the same: only a few of the oldest and fastest growing fry survive if you dont move the breeders. E. zonatum is worse than evergladei and okee/gilberti in this respect, IME.

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#817 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:01 PM

What I do is take a stick or stiff tubing and push the moss around once a week or so. Then I can see the fry dash by when the moss is moved, long before they're big enough to see when sitting still. When fry are present, move the breeders to another tank.

That is good advice, thank you. I will do that.

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#818 Guest_scottsquatch_*

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:12 PM

Well Erica, after taking a week to read this entire thread, I want some of your E. gilberti. I will do a 20 long tank just for them. Also, I have a suggestion to help your pygmies to feel more secure and come out more. I recamend a solid blue or black background on your tank. It makes the inhabitants of most tanks feel more secure and it also helps bring out their colors. I go with the solid colored backgrounds because the ones with scenery are too gaudy and will take away from the beauty of your real plants and fish. So, will you be putting any E. gilberti up for bid anytime soon? Lemme know. Thanks.

Scott

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#819 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:30 PM

Well Erica, after taking a week to read this entire thread, I want some of your E. gilberti...So, will you be putting any E. gilberti up for bid anytime soon? Lemme know. Thanks. Scott

My plan is to keep posting auctions of them on aquabid for the foreseeable future, probably once a month or so. I don't have an unlimited number of fish but I hope that sending out breeding colonies will make this species more available and more well known. Elassoma really deserve be more popular and common than they are, in my opinion. They're one of my favorite native fishes

I just checked and right now there's a seller named Rainbowrunner who has both Elassoma gilberti and okefenokee available. They seem wild caught, which is unfortunate, but maybe they've been acclimated long enough that they'll all survive the shipping process and survive in your tank. I don't know anything about Rainbowrunner and can't say.

Edited by EricaWieser, 11 April 2012 - 10:33 PM.