Javascript Disabled Detected

You currently have javascript disabled. Several functions may not work. Please re-enable javascript to access full functionality.

Elassoma Gilberti

Started by Guest_Okiimiru_* , Aug 22 2010 01:19 PM

«
Prev

Page 7 of 52
5
6
7
8
9

Next
»

This topic is locked

1023 replies to this topic

#121 Guest_gerald_*

Guests

Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:27 AM

Let us know if you end up with a reasonably even sex ratio of E.gilberti as the offspring grow up. Even if they adapt OK physiologically to the high pH and hardness in your tank, it might affect their sex ratio. Certain soft-water cichlids and killies are notorious for throwing all-one-sex if pH or temp are not right. Dont know whether hardness can affect sex.

Back to top

#122 Guest_EricaWieser_*

Guests

Posted 10 November 2010 - 09:16 AM

Let us know if you end up with a reasonably even sex ratio of E.gilberti as the offspring grow up. Even if they adapt OK physiologically to the high pH and hardness in your tank, it might affect their sex ratio. Certain soft-water cichlids and killies are notorious for throwing all-one-sex if pH or temp are not right. Dont know whether hardness can affect sex.

The young that have been born in my water are so far all female, but that might just be because they haven't had enough time to differentiate to their gender yet.

Back to top

#123 Guest_EricaWieser_*

Guests

Posted 12 November 2010 - 09:37 AM

Just wanted to give an update that the Elassoma gilberti are doing great in the 55 gallon community tank. That video I posted of it nosing the front glass is basically what keeps happening. I've also noticed the gilberti eating the crushed BettaMin® flake food that floats in the water column. I keep adding microworms every day, though, on top of that.

Back to top

#124 Guest_EricaWieser_*

Guests

Posted 14 November 2010 - 09:57 PM

Here's an updated photo of the Elassoma gilberti 10 gallon tank. I counted five adult females today and dozens of juveniles.

089resize.jpg 197.42KB 4 downloads

The two males are doing well, too. Photo:

056resize.jpg 29.76KB 0 downloads

And the gilberti in the 55 gallon tank are doing great.
They're not spending as much time exploring any more, like they were in that video I posted in a previous post,
but they're also not trying particularly hard to hide, either.
They chill near the plants but don't mind the other fish or being looked at.

Back to top

#125 Guest_wargreen_*

Guests

Posted 19 November 2010 - 11:48 AM

Here's an updated photo of the Elassoma gilberti 10 gallon tank. I counted five adult females today and dozens of juveniles.

089resize.jpg 197.42KB 4 downloads

The two males are doing well, too. Photo:

056resize.jpg 29.76KB 0 downloads

And the gilberti in the 55 gallon tank are doing great.
They're not spending as much time exploring any more, like they were in that video I posted in a previous post,
but they're also not trying particularly hard to hide, either.
They chill near the plants but don't mind the other fish or being looked at.

Beautifull fish! Nice setup.

Back to top

#126 Guest_EricaWieser_*

Guests

Posted 21 November 2010 - 09:32 AM

Beautifull fish! Nice setup.

Thank you

Here are some updated photos:

Some juveniles, hanging out together, chillin' in the mulm:

012resize.jpg 77.57KB 0 downloads
I count five fish in that picture.

One of the males, looking at me but not afraid:

017resize.jpg 34.44KB 0 downloads

And the ones in the 55 gallon tank are still there, getting fat and enjoying themselves.

Edited by EricaWieser, 21 November 2010 - 09:37 AM.

Back to top

#127 Guest_EricaWieser_*

Guests

Posted 29 November 2010 - 08:36 AM

Update time.

I moved the large male and two full grown females to the main tank. Their contemporaries are surviving in there, so I figured they'd be okay. Also it might stress the males out less to be separate from one another. The unexpected result was that the male gilberti in the main tank now hates the betta:
Picture:

075resize.jpg 133.18KB 1 downloads

I think some of my juveniles are hitting puberty. Here's a picture of two I think are different genders:
Female?

084resize.jpg 40.99KB 0 downloads

Male?

085resize.jpg 94.54KB 0 downloads

Does anyone have an opinion? If they're not different genders, what's going on?

Back to top

#128 Guest_gerald_*

Guests

Posted 29 November 2010 - 10:32 AM

Top fish is too pale to tell, but bottom fish looks female: Fins clear except for speckles, and strong speckling on body. The first sign of young males is the fin edges turning dusky, before any blue appears on fins and sides. Both sexes can have a blue-green streak under the eye.

Re Gilberti vs Betta: blue fish = competitor.

Back to top

#129 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 29 November 2010 - 01:22 PM

Re Gilberti vs Betta: blue fish = competitor.

This is exactly what I was thinking... I'll bet your Elassoma would have ignored a large red betta... but that cobalt blue... that's the same color that he is sporting... so in his small fish eyes, that os someone that is trying to 'out-blue' him... I'm guessing that posturing will go on for quite a while... or there may be a fight?

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

Back to top

#130 Guest_EricaWieser_*

Guests

Posted 29 November 2010 - 04:38 PM

This is exactly what I was thinking... I'll bet your Elassoma would have ignored a large red betta... but that cobalt blue... that's the same color that he is sporting... so in his small fish eyes, that os someone that is trying to 'out-blue' him... I'm guessing that posturing will go on for quite a while... or there may be a fight?

Well, the photo was taken right when I first dropped the gilberti male into the 55 gallon tank. I had completely forgotten that there was a blue betta in my tank, and I didn't see that the betta was there until I dropped the male onto its head (I added them at night, with only one light on, so no fish were active to bother the gilberti). They didn't actually fight; they just looked at one another like, "What!?" I'm sure the gilberti was upset about being captured and moved to another tank, and the betta was just like, "Hmm, something hit me in the face"

I felt really bad about my horrible placement skills, but after a tense testosterone charged moment, the betta swam away from the gilberti and the gilberti just tried to blend into the plants and take stock of its new surroundings. I'll report if they start fighting, but I really doubt they will. The gilberti didn't fight its male rival in the 10 gallon, and that betta is thoroughly socialized and does not fight even with other male bettas. (I socialize my male bettas and keep them in the same tank. That betta is only one of a few in the 55 gallon tank. They all get along).

Edited by EricaWieser, 29 November 2010 - 04:47 PM.

Back to top

#131 Guest_EricaWieser_*

Guests

Posted 29 November 2010 - 04:44 PM

Top fish is too pale to tell, but bottom fish looks female: Fins clear except for speckles, and strong speckling on body. The first sign of young males is the fin edges turning dusky, before any blue appears on fins and sides. Both sexes can have a blue-green streak under the eye.

*sighs* I'm sad that's a female. This means that literally every single fish born in my tanks has been female. The only males I have are the two you sent me. That's a death sentence for my population; once these two males are gone, there will be no one there to fertilize the eggs of the females.

But there is still time. I talked to my friend Andrew the bio major about it and he has a few ideas.
1. My pH or water hardness is wrong and they are unable to become male or the male fry are dying.
2. The presence of the two dominant males in a 10 gallon is preventing the other males from expressing themselves (either through gender repression or through the dominant males killing the small ones. I don't think the dominant males are killing small males because they don't even fight each other, let alone the little gender-unknown fish.)
3. There are males but they're still too young to show their gender.

If it's #1 there's nothing I can do really, in the long run. Just in case it's #2, I removed the older male and put him in the 55 gallon tank. That leaves just one male in the 10 gallon and about a dozen large juvenile fish and fully grown females. And if it's #3 then I guess everything will work out, given enough time.

Back to top

#132 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 29 November 2010 - 05:00 PM

I know you believe in peace and harmony, and I hope you can maintain it... but I have seen (and even have some bad video) of Elassoma "hitting" each other prety hard... This was two males in a ten gallon tank, so maybe if there is enough turf, you dont have to ahve a turf war... This was also during feeding... I have seen defending of a known feeding territory as a repeatable behaviour, so maybe you can help that by plentiful feeding, or even by feeding inmultiple locations?

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

Back to top

#133 Guest_fundulus_*

Guests

Posted 29 November 2010 - 05:01 PM

Yeah, social inhibition of the expression of male phenotype and sexuality is common in a wide range of fishes. Separating your juveniles into groups of 3 or 4 per tank would likely lift any inhibition and males would (magically?) appear.

Back to top

#134 Guest_EricaWieser_*

Guests

Posted 29 November 2010 - 07:25 PM

I know you believe in peace and harmony, and I hope you can maintain it... but I have seen (and even have some bad video) of Elassoma "hitting" each other prety hard... This was two males in a ten gallon tank, so maybe if there is enough turf, you dont have to ahve a turf war... This was also during feeding... I have seen defending of a known feeding territory as a repeatable behaviour, so maybe you can help that by plentiful feeding, or even by feeding inmultiple locations?

There's one male in the 10 gallon Elassoma tank and one male in the 55 gallon tank, so they're separate now and can't possibly hurt one another.
They got along fine in the 10 gallon tank, though. I posted a video earlier showing the big male scaring the little male away from a female. They weren't violent towards one another; the little male acquiesced to the big male's dominance and stopped courting the female. Link here: youtube.com/watch?v=5QNXjZNS5SY

And I don't think the Elassoma gilberti male is going to try to fight the betta. For one thing the betta's four times its size, and just drifts peacefully through the tank ignoring aggression from others. I trained it to do that. You have to, to keep multiple male bettas together.
And for another thing the gilberti has done nothing but hide so far. I tried to lure it out by feeding tiny chopped up thawed cocktail shrimp, but it stayed back in the plants. *sighs* That older generation, the fish I received in the male, are so much more fearful than the ones that were born in my tank. The ones that were born in tank are all like, "Oh, you're tapping the glass? I don't care. La la la" and they don't flinch even when I come right up close with a camera. The older fish are nothing like that. They're skittish are hate the 'big giant head'.
I removed a bunch of the plants from my 55 gallon tank, so maybe the more open space will entice the gilberti to swim in the open.

Yeah, social inhibition of the expression of male phenotype and sexuality is common in a wide range of fishes. Separating your juveniles into groups of 3 or 4 per tank would likely lift any inhibition and males would (magically?) appear.

*nods* That was the thought behind separating the male to two different tanks. The only thing I'm worried about it that there is a gravel/kitty litter substrate in the 55 gallon tanks. Small Elassoma eggs (if the male and two females mate) might get stuck between the rocks and not be able to hatch properly. Also, I just know those shrimp will munch on any eggs they see. Grr.

Edited by EricaWieser, 29 November 2010 - 07:30 PM.

Back to top

#135 Guest_EricaWieser_*

Guests

Posted 29 November 2010 - 07:38 PM

I haven't figured out how to use the gallery yet, or I'd post this using that.
Anyway, here's a photo taken about five minutes ago of the 55 gallon tank the Elassoma gilberti went into. I've sold off a lot of the Ceratophyllum (to other NANFA members, actually). It'll be back. I estimate it'll take about a month to reach the unfortunately high density it was at before. Stupid plant. I love it.

Photo:

089resize.jpg 167.61KB 0 downloads

Edited by EricaWieser, 29 November 2010 - 08:01 PM.

Back to top

#136 Guest_star5328_*

Guests

Posted 29 November 2010 - 08:35 PM

Fyi I enjoy this thread. Wish someone was doing this with about every fish that breeds easily in captivity as I'm always surfing "View New Content" looking for interesting reads. Keep it up Erica.

Back to top

#137 Guest_EricaWieser_*

Guests

Posted 29 November 2010 - 11:22 PM

Fyi I enjoy this thread. Wish someone was doing this with about every fish that breeds easily in captivity as I'm always surfing "View New Content" looking for interesting reads. Keep it up Erica.

Aw, thank you

So, I was going to be done updating for the night but as I was feeding the tank once more with chopped up cocktail shrimp, I finally found the new Elassoma gilberti for the first time since they were released. Guess where they were? Chilling with the Neolamprologus multifasciatus. Strange.

I took a video:

And a photo:

092resize.jpg 166.23KB 0 downloads

Back to top

#138 Guest_gerald_*

Guests

Posted 01 December 2010 - 01:53 PM

Ive been breeding these gilberti in 10 gal tanks for many generations, and always had multiple male offspring that were easy to recognize. Only 1 or 2 at a time will get serious breeding color in a 10 gal, but dark gray fins and blue body bars are still visible on subordinate males once they reach 1/2 - 5/8 inch or so.

So my guess is the high pH or hardness may be affecting sex determination. Any chance you could raise some fry in a small tank of softer water, pH 6 to 7? A 3 to 5 gal critter keeper tank would work. If not, I just sent some to Mark (itsme) also in OH, so maybe he'll end up with extra males.

Back to top

#139 Guest_EricaWieser_*

Guests

Posted 02 December 2010 - 05:32 AM

Ive been breeding these gilberti in 10 gal tanks for many generations, and always had multiple male offspring that were easy to recognize. Only 1 or 2 at a time will get serious breeding color in a 10 gal, but dark gray fins and blue body bars are still visible on subordinate males once they reach 1/2 - 5/8 inch or so.

So my guess is the high pH or hardness may be affecting sex determination. Any chance you could raise some fry in a small tank of softer water, pH 6 to 7? A 3 to 5 gal critter keeper tank would work. If not, I just sent some to Mark (itsme) also in OH, so maybe he'll end up with extra males.

I don't have access to different pH water, and I'm not willing to cater to a fish like that. If it doesn't like my water I won't keep it as a pet. But I think I'll give these Elassoma gilberti a little more time before I decide they are having gender distribution problems. The juveniles are all still quite small, and I'm still kind of a newb at trying to guess what gender they are. Maybe as they grow up and get bigger it will become more obvious whether or not there really are males.

Edit:
Also, as an update, I saw the full grown male gilberti chillin' in the main tank, so I dropped some finely chopped cocktail shrimp near it. I don't think it got the idea. A piece landed on its head and sat there, and it didn't move, but watched as the fish around it ate other pieces of shrimp. Maybe it will get the idea. It did seem to get more and more comfortable as it realized that the other fish weren't going to eat it; its color changed from clear to a dark, opaque black, which I think means it became less stressed out.

Edited by EricaWieser, 02 December 2010 - 05:34 AM.

Back to top

#140 Guest_itsme_*

Guests

Posted 02 December 2010 - 11:08 PM

Yeah, I'd wait it out. These fish are so small and don't necessarily display until they really get in the right frame of "mind". If you have a good number of fry, I'd be willing to bet you have a good percentage of males among them. Give them time to grow out. Anyway, if you want to trade at some point or just get rid of some extras females, I'll be happy to help out.