227 replies to this topic

[Josh Blaylock]

Update:

 

I've tested the Bloodworms and the Omega one pellets with no adverse reaction.  I have feed the API pellets today and I'll wait until tomorrow to call it.  I also did a water change in the tank today and I'll wait until tomorrow to call that one too, however, after 6 hours, the 3 fish in there look fine.

 

So, maybe low 02 could have been the issue.  It stinks that I didn't think of that because I actually have a professional dissolved O2 test kit that I could have checked the level with.  More updates tomorrow.

[MtFallsTodd]

Looks like things might be headed in the right direction for you Josh. It always stinks to lose a tank full of fish. Hope you can enjoy your tank again very soon.

[Irate Mormon]

This has happened to me as well.  It's a good argument for using only aged water.  Those 55-gallon plastic drums are good for that.

[Josh Blaylock]

This has happened to me as well.  It's a good argument for using only aged water.  Those 55-gallon plastic drums are good for that.

 

Yeah, that would be good to have, but I'm not sure about the use/application side.  I mean, with a 125gal, the Python is the easiest way to change the water and do it quickly.  I suppose you could have the drum outside, near the tank and have a water pump inside of it to pump the water back in.

[cjohns]

O No. Any updates Josh?

[Josh Blaylock]

O No. Any updates Josh?

not really, the tank has been doing fine since this event. I've done a couple water changes since then with zero problems. IDK

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[Josh Blaylock]

It's happening again. I am literally sitting here watching all the fish die.

[cjohns]

It's happening again. I am literally sitting here watching all the fish die.

O no!!! Any idea what's going on?

[Josh Blaylock]

Topped off about 6-8gal yesterday.  Left off my air pump all night.  All fish were fine last night at 11pm.  Now, I have at least 4 dead and almost all are gasping at the surface with huge bloated bellies.

 

Doing a massive water change now.  May help, may not.

[littlen]

Even with air pumps off, (and filters running--I think you have a couple Fluval FX6s on there?) I can't imagine your D.O. drops so much that the fish are dying from asphyxiation.  

 

Any chance your dechlorinator only handles chlorine, and not chloramines?  (Do you even have chloramines in your water?)

 

Sorry dude, I know that has to be infuriating.  

[Josh Blaylock]

I have to think now that low DO is it.

 

I did a nearly 50% water change, as soon as I started spraying fresh water into the tank, most of the fish recovered quickly.  There are still a few that look like they will not make it, and I've lost about 10 now.  UGH, all 3 of my larger Warpaints, who were actually doing well, died.  All the Warpaints seemed to handle whatever happened bad.  

 

Think the in-tank background has something to do with it?

[Doug_Dame]

 

Yeah, that would be good to have, but I'm not sure about the use/application side.  I mean, with a 125gal, the Python is the easiest way to change the water and do it quickly.  I suppose you could have the drum outside, near the tank and have a water pump inside of it to pump the water back in.

 

Hate that you have these problems !!!

 

I've never used a Python for water changes, because

(a) the timing and logistics of in-tank chlorine/chloramine treatment seemed tricky to me,

(b) new tap water may have very low DO, and

© the direct-from-tap water may also have a very different temperature than the tank water.

 

All of these potential problems would be worsened when doing large water changes, say 40% vs 10%. 

 

If the background was leaching something toxic, that would be a continuous process. And fish would die off sporadically, as they reached their species' tolerance. Then when you did a water change and diluted the concentration of mystery-toxin in the water, that would give you a period of safety, since the fish would have already survived at much higher levels of toxicity. Since that pattern is totally unlike what you have experienced, I think you can rule-out the materials of the background as being the problem. 

 

I had a large mixed-community tank wiped out last month, but I know the cause, it was a fast moving disease. Got my minnows, got my killies, got my darters. Very distressing. Only one fish survived. Which, amazingly to me, is a silverside that was was exposed to air during the capture and also endured a 6 hour trip home. Usually silversides are fragile as heck, somebody must have forgotten to tell this guy. On the positive side, my snail population has exploded.

[Josh Blaylock]

Both times this has happened, I've left my air pump off.  With running a FX6, and Eheim Pro2, with fans blowing on the surface, I wouldn't think O2 would be an issue.  However, that seems to be it.

 

I wish I would have grabbed a cup of water out of it as I have a professional DO test kit that I use for KRWW water sampling, that would have told the story.

[littlen]

It is possible that it is a low D.O. event.  The surface gasping certainly points to that.  But I'm starting to think there could also be an ammonia spike associated with that as well.  Again, depending on what kind of dechlorinator you use, you might be inadvertently dumping in a lot of ammonia (or chloramines) in during those large top-offs.  I don't mean to dumb-down my explanation if you're already familiar with it, just elaborating for anyone else following along who might not know much about what happens with chlorine during water changes.

 

My theory is that some of the dechlorinators only neutralize (free) chlorine---those that haven't bonded with any other molecules.  This would be your basic, sodium thiosulfate based neutralizers.  [Municipal water treatment centers like using chloramines because the [total] chlorine lasts longer.....~3 days vs ~24 hours with just chlorine alone.   However, if there is a lot of chloramines in the water (aka, total chlorine) and you have an older neutralizing product, A few things may be happening.  First, nothing is happening to your chloramines.  And you nuke your fish that way.  Second option, some/all of the chloramines break down into chlorine and ammonia and the 'un-neutralized' ammonia nukes the fish.  Third option, the denitrifying bacteria blossom (overnight) and suck up the dissolved O2 in the process.  Ergo, low D.O. by morning!

 

Products like Amquel-Plus have an agent in them that bonds the ammonia into ammonium that is harmless to the fish.  Then the ammonium is further broken down by the denitrification process.  (BUT!....there could be an increase in dissolved nitrogen gas in the water that is harming the fish!)

 

6-8 gallons seems so insignificant in a 125 gallon tank.  But by the you factor in all the displacement of water by rocks, wood, fish, filters, backgrounds, etc, you may have only 100 gallons of water, or less?  IF my theory is touching on something, then it wouldn't be surprising that our pristine water loving stream fish drop so quickly with sudden ammonia or chlorine spikes.  

 

 

On a side-note, I love me some war-paints.  I've seen them handle prolonged warm-water events, and also survive a slow exposure to poor water quality.  One of my favorite shiners by far so I feel your loss there too.  

 

[Josh Blaylock]

I'm really certain it's low DO. I cleaned the tank yesterday. I left the air on, and still had fish gasping for air after about an hour. I added another air pump and stone and all was fine in about 5 minutes.

What's a good alternative to Prime? I really like that it's concentrated, but if it's killing my fish, I'll use something else.

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[Dustin]

Amquel.

[littlen]

I use API tap water conditioner--Super strength. I've only ever heard good things about Prime. But it sounds like a potential smoking gun.

[michifish]

I second Amquel. Not Amquel Plus.

[Doug_Dame]

It looks like some have their mouths agape like I sometimes see in water with poor oxygenation.  Is there any chance that you added too much Prime?  If there is very little chlorine/chloramine/ammonia present in the water and the amount of prime added is excessive it can deplete the O2 in the water.

 

Josh, didn't you say you could measure DO? If so, you need to do some testing to nail this down ... i.e., see if Dustin's theory is correct. We need to help stop your pain. (We have met your pain, and it is our pain. Pogo, more or less.) 

 

As I understand your typical w/c process with the python, you treat the existing tank water with XX dose of Prime just as you are starting to add city water directly into the tank, and then (perhaps?) again part-way through. (Do you measure precisely with a measuring spoon/cup or do you approximate?) 

 

You should get fill a 5 gal bucket with tank water. Test it for DO. Give it a Prime dose proportional to what you usually do on the aquarium at the beginning of a w/c. Then re-test the bucket's DO level every 5 minutes for at least an hour, or longer if the DO hasn't stabilized. 

[Josh Blaylock]

I may give that a try this weekend.