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Breeding Leptolucania ommata

Started by Guest_Elijah_* , May 31 2011 12:32 PM

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#1 Guest_Elijah_*

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:32 PM

I have had Leptolucania ommata for about two years now and they are starting to die off, one here and there. They were in a heavily planted tank by themselves for quite a while, but no fry. I have E. zonatum in the tank with them now.
Anyone have success in breeding these guys? I really like them and would like to have a sustained population.
Thanks

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#2 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:42 PM

I have had Leptolucania ommata for about two years now and they are starting to die off, one here and there. They were in a heavily planted tank by themselves for quite a while, but no fry. I have E. zonatum in the tank with them now.
Anyone have success in breeding these guys? I really like them and would like to have a sustained population.
Thanks

Elassoma are pretty active hunters of tiny little things that you can barely see... and are also known to eat snail eggs... I would guess that the first thing you should do is get the predator(s) out of the tank...

Alternately, it is summer... search the forum for "Hot Tub Killies"... you might be able to set them up outside in a tub and get better results...

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#3 Guest_RichardSFL_*

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 01:17 PM

I'm trying the same thing with two tanks of ommata but I've had them for only two months and one month. I'm feeding them BBS, BS eggs, and Grindal worm with some flake. One tank has lots of hornwort and the other a variety of plants including Hygrophila corymbosa 'angustifolia' (planted) and Hygrophyla difformis (floating). Both tanks are ommatas only. Nothing so far except some courting but I read recently that breeding usually takes place at around 74F and these tanks are general at 70F, so I am going to try a heater in one of them to see if that works. A neighbor friend and I are also going to try a container pond this summer - if we can ever schedule a weekend convenient for both of us - and I may try some in there if we get it done.

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#4 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 06:13 PM

Elassoma are pretty active hunters of tiny little things that you can barely see... and are also known to eat snail eggs... I would guess that the first thing you should do is get the predator(s) out of the tank...

I don't think Elassoma eat fry. They don't eat their own fry, didn't eat my livebearer fry, and weren't found to have any fry in their stomachs in a report found here: http://en.wikipedia....d_pygmy_sunfish

Lastly, no other fish species or banded pygmy sunfish larva were found in the stomach contents.

What are you feeding your ommata? Have you considered feeding them californian blackworms? Here is a picture of them: http://gallery.nanfa...resize.jpg.html They are wiggly, so the fish stuff themselves on them. Full fish are more likely to breed than skinny fish.

There might be some sort of breeding trigger at work here, too. Some killifish are triggered to spawn by rainfall. In the aquarium, rain can be simulated by doing a large water change. So if you do find someone who bred this fish successfully, ask them if they had recently changed anything, done a large water change, etc.

Edited by EricaWieser, 31 May 2011 - 06:24 PM.

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#5 Guest_Elijah_*

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 07:16 PM

I don't think Elassoma eat fry. They don't eat their own fry, didn't eat my livebearer fry, and weren't found to have any fry in their stomachs in a report found here: http://en.wikipedia....d_pygmy_sunfish

What are you feeding your ommata? Have you considered feeding them californian blackworms? Here is a picture of them: http://gallery.nanfa...resize.jpg.html They are wiggly, so the fish stuff themselves on them. Full fish are more likely to breed than skinny fish.

There might be some sort of breeding trigger at work here, too. Some killifish are triggered to spawn by rainfall. In the aquarium, rain can be simulated by doing a large water change. So if you do find someone who bred this fish successfully, ask them if they had recently changed anything, done a large water change, etc.

Right now I have a pond full of daphnia. My fish are going crazy at feeding time! Usually I do feed them blackworms.
The rain thing is interesting. Hmm.

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#6 Guest_Elijah_*

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 07:20 PM

Elassoma are pretty active hunters of tiny little things that you can barely see... and are also known to eat snail eggs... I would guess that the first thing you should do is get the predator(s) out of the tank...

Alternately, it is summer... search the forum for "Hot Tub Killies"... you might be able to set them up outside in a tub and get better results...

Ah, well they were in their own tank for a long time. I keep a population of blackworms in the tank at all times. Lately I have been feeding massive amounts of baby daphnia too. I would think that the combo of those things and the fact that I have plenty of zonatum fry would add up to the fry being safe?
I will check out hot tub killies! I'll need to get some more though before I risk putting them outdoors.
Thanks for the info.

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#7 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 07:22 PM

Right now I have a pond full of daphnia. My fish are going crazy at feeding time! Usually I do feed them blackworms.
The rain thing is interesting. Hmm.

Okay, then they're getting lots of nutritious food. What pH and hardness (GH) do you have them at?

And here's an article on simulating a rainfall spawning trigger: http://www.aquarticl...ny seasons.html

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#8 Guest_Elijah_*

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 07:22 PM

I'm trying the same thing with two tanks of ommata but I've had them for only two months and one month. I'm feeding them BBS, BS eggs, and Grindal worm with some flake. One tank has lots of hornwort and the other a variety of plants including Hygrophila corymbosa 'angustifolia' (planted) and Hygrophyla difformis (floating). Both tanks are ommatas only. Nothing so far except some courting but I read recently that breeding usually takes place at around 74F and these tanks are general at 70F, so I am going to try a heater in one of them to see if that works. A neighbor friend and I are also going to try a container pond this summer - if we can ever schedule a weekend convenient for both of us - and I may try some in there if we get it done.

Thanks for the info.
Where do you get your ommatas from? If you end up succeding and selling some, let me know.

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#9 Guest_Elijah_*

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 07:22 PM

Okay, then they're getting lots of nutritious food. What pH and hardness (GH) do you have them at?

And here's an article on simulating a rainfall spawning trigger: http://www.aquarticl...ny seasons.html

I'll check on that stuff.
Thanks for the info.

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#10 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 07:30 PM

Here's a breeding report from Regina Spotti, who spawned Leptolucania ommata: http://www.killi.co....sult.php?ID=418
I guess the water has to be very soft and acidic.

Edited by EricaWieser, 31 May 2011 - 07:35 PM.

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#11 Guest_RichardSFL_*

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 01:47 PM

Hi Elijah - I got my ommatas from aquaculturestore.com (outdoor tank raised) and Aquabid.com (wild-caught). I'll let you know if I am successful. I might have lost one of the wild-caught last night. I was checking them out and saw that one of the females had gotten trapped between the sponge filter and the glass. I thought she was dead but when I released her, she took off into the plants. Unfortunately I have not seen her since - not sure if she is dead or still hiding.

Hi Erica - Thanks for jumping in. My water is very, very soft but has a pH of 7.6, so that may be a problem (referring to the BKA link). According to The Fishes of the Okefenokee the water of the swamp has a pH of 3.7! I also started feeding blackworm to one of the tanks last night - the one with the larger fish - not sure if the smaller fish can handle them but I will try a few tonight.

The 1982 (November I think) issue of American Currents has an article on breeding ommatas. It mentions that Frey (?) recommends a temperature of 75F but the writer mentions that he keeps his at "room temperature". The writer says he did not set out to breed them but that some fry just survived and will do so in well-planted tanks. He mentions the importance of live food saying that he fed small daphnia, small tubifex, cyclops, mosquito larvae, and live BBS.

The BKA link mentioned that they are terribly shy, but that is not really my experience. They will bolt if startled or fade into the plants if they see me without being startled, but they soon are back in view.

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#12 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 02:51 PM

Hi Erica - Thanks for jumping in. My water is very, very soft but has a pH of 7.6, so that may be a problem (referring to the BKA link). According to The Fishes of the Okefenokee the water of the swamp has a pH of 3.7! I also started feeding blackworm to one of the tanks last night - the one with the larger fish - not sure if the smaller fish can handle them but I will try a few tonight.

Wow, I didn't know the pH was 3.7 in the Okefenokee. That's a really extreme difference; pH is an exponential scale. It might be worthwhile to invest in bottled reverse osmosis water, which has extremely low mineral content, and to then lower the pH with a couple methods. Here are some ideas to lower the pH from http://freshaquarium...y/a/mathcph.htm :
1. Filtering the water over peat moss
2. Driftwood and dead leaves (be careful to not choose a poisonous plant species)
3. Diffusing CO2. My favorite design for this is the DIY 2-Liter baker's yeast and sugar combination. Mine would always bubble for two weeks or so. The only trick is making it airtight, which is easiest done by pulling the diagonally cut air tube through with pliers, as shown in this link: http://diyyeastco2.blogspot.com/ And I bought my CO2 diffuser from Aquatic Magic, this nice company that sells really inexpensive CO2 supplies. They have a diffuser designed to fit a 10 gallon tank already, so you don't have to do any calculations.

I'm amazed that the pH is 3.7 there. That's ridiculously low. It wouldn't be too expensive to use Reverse Osmosis (RO) water since L. ommata are so small that you'd really only need a 10 gallon tank. That's doable.

Edited by EricaWieser, 01 June 2011 - 02:54 PM.

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#13 Guest_RichardSFL_*

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 11:58 AM

Wow, I didn't know the pH was 3.7 in the Okefenokee. That's a really extreme difference; pH is an exponential scale. It might be worthwhile to invest in bottled reverse osmosis water, which has extremely low mineral content, and to then lower the pH with a couple methods. Here are some ideas to lower the pH from http://freshaquarium...y/a/mathcph.htm :
1. Filtering the water over peat moss
2. Driftwood and dead leaves (be careful to not choose a poisonous plant species)
3. Diffusing CO2. My favorite design for this is the DIY 2-Liter baker's yeast and sugar combination. Mine would always bubble for two weeks or so. The only trick is making it airtight, which is easiest done by pulling the diagonally cut air tube through with pliers, as shown in this link: http://diyyeastco2.blogspot.com/ And I bought my CO2 diffuser from Aquatic Magic, this nice company that sells really inexpensive CO2 supplies. They have a diffuser designed to fit a 10 gallon tank already, so you don't have to do any calculations.

I'm amazed that the pH is 3.7 there. That's ridiculously low. It wouldn't be too expensive to use Reverse Osmosis (RO) water since L. ommata are so small that you'd really only need a 10 gallon tank. That's doable.

I know - that pH is insane. One scale I was looking at labeled that range "vinegar", "acid rain", and "adult fish die". I meant to double check the book last night and got sidetracked.

My fish came from sellers in Florida, so I don't know if their home pH is that low. Thanks for your suggestions. I am going to try almond leaves in one of the tanks and maybe some peat in the other tank, in the filter. I've never tried to change the pH or make any other similar adjustments in my water, figuring it was better to match my fish to the water I have rather than try to change the water for the fish.

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#14 Guest_RichardSFL_*

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 12:09 PM

A quick Google sample agrees the pH of the Okefenokee is 3.7 to 4.0.

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#15 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:14 PM

I've never tried to change the pH or make any other similar adjustments in my water, figuring it was better to match my fish to the water I have rather than try to change the water for the fish.

Usually that works out okay because most of our standard fish species are from a neutral pH that is similar to our tap water. But a fish like L. ommata is from such a drastically different environment that it doesn't feel comfortable at neutral pH. I didn't know a pH of 3.7 existed. The worst case I'd heard of was in Amazon river tetras like neon tetras, where the pH has to be 5 to 6 or they won't spawn. It might be helpful to look up the spawning procedures for these tetras and mimic the setups and the techniques breeders use to easily and safely lower pH.

Edited by EricaWieser, 02 June 2011 - 02:23 PM.

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#16 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:32 PM

I know - that pH is insane. One scale I was looking at labeled that range "vinegar", "acid rain", and "adult fish die". I meant to double check the book last night and got sidetracked.

When we took a tour of the Okefenokee several years ago, one of the rangers said that the water was potentially the safest water you could drink... at least from a disease or microbe standpoint... almost no microbes or anything lives in it... tea colored, but absolutely crystal clear... clear brown...

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#17 Guest_RichardSFL_*

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 11:19 AM

When we took a tour of the Okefenokee several years ago, one of the rangers said that the water was potentially the safest water you could drink... at least from a disease or microbe standpoint... almost no microbes or anything lives in it... tea colored, but absolutely crystal clear... clear brown...

I never thought of that, that the acidity would keep down the microbes. And lots of tannins, too, it sounds like. I'll see what almond leaves might do in that regard.

A visit to the Okefenokee is definitely on my list. It's frustrating to read about it 3000 miles away. The best of the native fish action seems concentrated in the South East.

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#18 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 02:02 PM

The best of the native fish action seems concentrated in the South East.

You're exactly right.

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#19 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 12:10 AM

Youse guys on the left coast are SOL, and that's a fact. Can't collect native fishes, can't throw dead dogs off bridges, can't shoot holes in road signs - all the things we southerners get to do freely and without recrimination.

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#20 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 12:29 AM

Upon further reflection, you guys have one thing we lack in the south - you have frogs that can be licked. Down here they taste bad (except for the fried legs) and they don't get you high.