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Breeding Leptolucania ommata

Started by Guest_Elijah_* , May 31 2011 12:32 PM

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66 replies to this topic

#21 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 01:07 PM

Interestingly, we can't throw dead dogs on bridges either. Makes no sense.

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#22 Guest_RichardSFL_*

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 02:05 PM

Adding to my frustration is the fact that I was born and raised in Kentucky. And I was a Cub Scout/Boy Scout with great adult leaders who took us camping once a month all year round. The frustrating part is that at that time, I knew nothing of fish except goldfish (which I killed my fair share of in warm unfiltered un-aerated water). My cousins and I did play in the creek on their parents' land, but all we caught were crayfish which we never tried to keep. As for the dead dog situation, I am completely ignorant. Can anyone recommend a good book on the subject?

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#23 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 02:49 PM

Sure can!

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#24 Guest_RichardSFL_*

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 12:01 PM

Ha! Didn't expect THAT.

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#25 Guest_Elijah_*

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 11:58 PM

Hi Elijah - I got my ommatas from aquaculturestore.com (outdoor tank raised) and Aquabid.com (wild-caught). I'll let you know if I am successful. I might have lost one of the wild-caught last night. I was checking them out and saw that one of the females had gotten trapped between the sponge filter and the glass. I thought she was dead but when I released her, she took off into the plants. Unfortunately I have not seen her since - not sure if she is dead or still hiding.

Hi Erica - Thanks for jumping in. My water is very, very soft but has a pH of 7.6, so that may be a problem (referring to the BKA link). According to The Fishes of the Okefenokee the water of the swamp has a pH of 3.7! I also started feeding blackworm to one of the tanks last night - the one with the larger fish - not sure if the smaller fish can handle them but I will try a few tonight.

The 1982 (November I think) issue of American Currents has an article on breeding ommatas. It mentions that Frey (?) recommends a temperature of 75F but the writer mentions that he keeps his at "room temperature". The writer says he did not set out to breed them but that some fry just survived and will do so in well-planted tanks. He mentions the importance of live food saying that he fed small daphnia, small tubifex, cyclops, mosquito larvae, and live BBS.

The BKA link mentioned that they are terribly shy, but that is not really my experience. They will bolt if startled or fade into the plants if they see me without being startled, but they soon are back in view.

I guess I need to start putting RO water in their tank. I have Blue spotted and Black banded sunfish breeding (unintentionally, but happily) as well as a couple of Elassoma varieties, so I figured the Ommatas would do it too.
They have been a lot less shy since I started feeding them small daphnia from a turkey baster.

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#26 Guest_Elijah_*

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 12:03 AM

Youse guys on the left coast are SOL, and that's a fact. Can't collect native fishes, can't throw dead dogs off bridges, can't shoot holes in road signs - all the things we southerners get to do freely and without recrimination.

Hey when I lived in Cali bro, I threw dead dogs off of bridges and shot holes in signs all the time! Couldn't collect natives though, too risky.

Edited by Elijah, 07 June 2011 - 12:10 AM.

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#27 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 10:34 AM

I haven't been asked to produce a fishing license in 20 years... and on that occasion I was in fact poaching (I was maybe 10 or 12 years old). In SC I used to carry both a fresh and saltwater license despite having no interest in saltwater, just because their definition of where each was required was so convoluted and hard to follow, and freshwater species were regulated under the saltwater license downstream of the line. I never saw anybody interested in enforcing it though.

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#28 Guest_RichardSFL_*

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 12:35 PM

I guess I need to start putting RO water in their tank. I have Blue spotted and Black banded sunfish breeding (unintentionally, but happily) as well as a couple of Elassoma varieties, so I figured the Ommatas would do it too.
They have been a lot less shy since I started feeding them small daphnia from a turkey baster.

I was going to post today to see how you were doing on your ommatas.

I just ordered some almond leaves that should be here later this week. I am going to add those to my wild-caught ommata tank to see what effect they have on pH and behavior. I am thinking of raising the temperature in the other tank to 74F but without the leaves to see what that might do. 74F is the temp I have seen for spawning them.

Mine are not all that shy actually. In fact last night, I had to take all the plants out of one of the tanks in order to catch a sole Endler's male that was in there. I thought he would be fine in that tank, but he actually got the idea that all the ommatas were female Endler's and was constantly after them. Anyway, even with all that disruption and my net and giant hand in the tank, within a couple of minutes of my putting my tank back together, they were out cruising. Do you have a heavily planted tank? You might have mentioned but as I am at work, I don't have time to look right now.

I'm still intrgiued by those people who seem to make no particular effort and still get them to spawn!

Edited by RichardSFL, 07 June 2011 - 12:57 PM.

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#29 Guest_Elijah_*

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 10:56 PM

I was going to post today to see how you were doing on your ommatas.

I just ordered some almond leaves that should be here later this week. I am going to add those to my wild-caught ommata tank to see what effect they have on pH and behavior. I am thinking of raising the temperature in the other tank to 74F but without the leaves to see what that might do. 74F is the temp I have seen for spawning them.

Mine are not all that shy actually. In fact last night, I had to take all the plants out of one of the tanks in order to catch a sole Endler's male that was in there. I thought he would be fine in that tank, but he actually got the idea that all the ommatas were female Endler's and was constantly after them. Anyway, even with all that disruption and my net and giant hand in the tank, within a couple of minutes of my putting my tank back together, they were out cruising. Do you have a heavily planted tank? You might have mentioned but as I am at work, I don't have time to look right now.

I'm still intrgiued by those people who seem to make no particular effort and still get them to spawn!

Well I haven't had time to do anything with the tank yet. I have had these ommatas for about 2 years ( I think) and they have been fine, but no fry. I really like them a lot so recently when I found a dead one and read that their lifespan is not that long I started thinking about trying to up the chances of them breeding. I had not lost a single one as far as I know, until a few weeks ago. II was thinking that I had lost a few more and not seen them, but the other day I saw I still have about 10 or so left.
I do intend on adding RO water to the tank. I breed supposedly delicate apistogrammas in a 55 gallon Amazon community tank with ro water and peat in the filter. I am going to try the same method with the Ommatas. The thing is that my E. zonatum and E. evergladei breed with great success and I do not have to manipulate my water for them.
Maybe the Ommatas are just way more delicate?
Their tank is very well planted.
Endlers never give up!

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#30 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 12:21 AM

The thing is that my E. zonatum and E. evergladei breed with great success and I do not have to manipulate my water for them.
Maybe the Ommatas are just way more delicate?

The ommatas are farther from their range of pH comfort than the Elassoma zonatum and evergladei. The difference between a pH of 4 and pH of 7 is immense.

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#31 Guest_Elijah_*

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 07:08 PM

The ommatas are farther from their range of pH comfort than the Elassoma zonatum and evergladei. The difference between a pH of 4 and pH of 7 is immense.

How do you know? -not being sarcastic, just curious. My E evergladei and E.zonatum both came from the Mobile Alabama area as did my ommata. I do know that the omattas came from a tiny, hard to get to stream, but I don't think the elassoma came from there.

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#32 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 07:26 PM

How do you know? -not being sarcastic, just curious. My E evergladei and E.zonatum both came from the Mobile Alabama area as did my ommata. I do know that the omattas came from a tiny, hard to get to stream, but I don't think the elassoma came from there.

I'm not an expert in Leptolucania ommata; I've never even kept them in the aquarium. But in the breeding profile published on http://www.killi.co....sult.php?ID=418 by Regina Spotti, she says that soft, acidic water is necessary to induce L. ommata to spawn. It could be that their baseline preference for pH is somewhere around 5 ish, but that they'll tolerate anything from the 3.7 of the Okefenokee to the 6 of certain small streams and waters of Alabama. The Elassoma probably have a baseline pH preference closer to neutral, with a range of maybe 6 to 8 of tolerated pH. Just because you find both species in a stream with a pH of 6 doesn't mean that both species will react the same to more acidic or more basic water. If your water is around 7, for example, then of the two species you take from the same water, one (the Elassoma) would be okay with the 7 pH and one (the L. ommata) wouldn't be.

The same is true with hardness. My Elassoma gilberti spawn in water that has a hardness of 16 to 20 degrees of hardness (DH). Their range of tolerated hardnesses is probably on the high side compared to L. ommata, which I would imagine prefers a hardness from 0-5 DH. Both fish could probably coexist in water of hardness for example 6 DH or so, but they'd be at different ends of their preference spectrum, I'd imagine.

Of course I'm just saying all these things as an example; I have no idea was the pH and hardness preferences of L. ommata are. Regina Spotti said soft, acidic water though, so I'd start there.

Edited by EricaWieser, 08 June 2011 - 07:30 PM.

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#33 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 08:02 PM

Elassoma were one of the two most dominant species I saw in the Okefenokee. I'm not sure if there were more of them or L. ommata (ommatas living right on the surface were far more visible, but stirring the bottom produced huge numbers of Elassoma too. In a whole day the only other fish I saw were a single bluegill and a pickerel (not netted, but probably Esox niger). Which is to say that 6 is far from the bottom of their pH range. No idea of the top though.

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#34 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 08:11 PM

Elassoma were one of the two most dominant species I saw in the Okefenokee.

*nods* Yes, I'm really impressed with the extreme range of water they're able to spawn in. My Elassoma gilberti spawn at 7.5 pH and 16-20 DH, and a nearly identical species, Elassoma Okefenokee, spawns comfortably in the waters of the Okefenokee swamp. It's really neat that they have such a wide range.

I wish we had more spawning profiles of L. ommata to work with. I guess with the eggs taking up to two weeks to hatch and the fry being highly cannibalistic (both problems that Elassoma don't have), ommatas are significantly more difficult to raise. I was thinking about adding L. ommata to my E. gilberti tank recently, but after reading this topic have reconsidered. They would never be able to spawn in my tank's water.

Edited by EricaWieser, 08 June 2011 - 08:13 PM.

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#35 Guest_RichardSFL_*

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 10:19 PM

I guess ommatas are just not that exciting to most people, so few are trying to breed them. But eventually we may have two more spawning profiles to add to the record, even if they are failures. Once I get my almond leaves, I will start tracking the pH and letting you all know. It's interesting that they can do so well in higher pH except for breeding. My last batch I had for a little more than two years, and they always seemed happy in my 7.6. At the AKA forum I found this: "Sometimes we don't know the proper water type for fish. I'm surprised sometimes by certain killies from hard-water Florida that are found in peaty, black water areas. Leptolucania ommata and Fundulus cingulatus, I am told, are from such waters and prosper in water with a lower mineral content." (Scott Davis) Not a lot more about them over there, nothing really helpful anyway. Regina Spotti mentioned on AKA that she breeds them but that is all she said.

These are only the second egg layers I have tried to breed (the first being White Clouds which were as easy to breed as any livebearer I know). So I'm curious as to your thoughts about why my males are displaying to the females, some of whom are responding and going into the hornwort for hanky panky. I mean, the behavior is there and I guess that surprises me since the water is unsuitable. What does the higher pH inhibit? Egg production? Elijah, do you see your males displaying?

I noticed the other night that the wild-caught males have green dorsal fins. I don't know if I just caught up to that detail or if they have just started to color up, the possibility of which got my hopes up. But I have found nothing about green fins or male breeding colors. Their anal fins and tails are a nice pale yellow gold. I need to ask the guy I got them from if he knows the pH of the water he got them from. They were collected in a ditch that feeds into Lake Butler in Florida.

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#36 Guest_wegl2001_*

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 09:59 AM

Martin,
A couple of years ago I had to take a detour onto a dirt road due to road construction and there, on a bridge, was a sign which read "Do Not Throw Dead Animals From Bridge. $100 Fine". Of course all the Yankees on the trip had to get out and take their picture in front of the sign. I was pissed. They thought I was embarassed by the fact that the local authorities had to tell us not to throw dead animals from a bridge. No. This is just another attack on our southern culture and heritage! What's next? No more sign shooting, cow tipping or mail box busting? This is an ominous sign.
David

Youse guys on the left coast are SOL, and that's a fact. Can't collect native fishes, can't throw dead dogs off bridges, can't shoot holes in road signs - all the things we southerners get to do freely and without recrimination.

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#37 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 05:44 PM

Regina Spotti mentioned on AKA that she breeds them but that is all she said.

Here's a hyperlink to her spawning description: http://www.killi.co....sult.php?ID=418

Would you mind posting a picture of these males with green dorsal fins?

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#38 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 09 June 2011 - 05:53 PM

I noticed the other night that the wild-caught males have green dorsal fins. I don't know if I just caught up to that detail or if they have just started to color up, the possibility of which got my hopes up. But I have found nothing about green fins or male breeding colors. Their anal fins and tails are a nice pale yellow gold. I need to ask the guy I got them from if he knows the pH of the water he got them from. They were collected in a ditch that feeds into Lake Butler in Florida.

I think that may be normal... I remember talking to some folks before that said that omatta from different portions of the range vary in color somewhat... I cant remember where from, but greenish ones were mentioned... the ones tha I had from the Okefenokee proper were bright lemony yellow.

And regarding population density, I remember too that the Elssoma were dominant in the swamp... the F. cingulatus and the L. omatta that we got were dominant at the boat ramp right at the entrance (less cover, shallower water).

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#39 Guest_Elijah_*

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 06:15 PM

I guess ommatas are just not that exciting to most people, so few are trying to breed them. But eventually we may have two more spawning profiles to add to the record, even if they are failures. Once I get my almond leaves, I will start tracking the pH and letting you all know. It's interesting that they can do so well in higher pH except for breeding. My last batch I had for a little more than two years, and they always seemed happy in my 7.6. At the AKA forum I found this: "Sometimes we don't know the proper water type for fish. I'm surprised sometimes by certain killies from hard-water Florida that are found in peaty, black water areas. Leptolucania ommata and Fundulus cingulatus, I am told, are from such waters and prosper in water with a lower mineral content." (Scott Davis) Not a lot more about them over there, nothing really helpful anyway. Regina Spotti mentioned on AKA that she breeds them but that is all she said.

These are only the second egg layers I have tried to breed (the first being White Clouds which were as easy to breed as any livebearer I know). So I'm curious as to your thoughts about why my males are displaying to the females, some of whom are responding and going into the hornwort for hanky panky. I mean, the behavior is there and I guess that surprises me since the water is unsuitable. What does the higher pH inhibit? Egg production? Elijah, do you see your males displaying?

I noticed the other night that the wild-caught males have green dorsal fins. I don't know if I just caught up to that detail or if they have just started to color up, the possibility of which got my hopes up. But I have found nothing about green fins or male breeding colors. Their anal fins and tails are a nice pale yellow gold. I need to ask the guy I got them from if he knows the pH of the water he got them from. They were collected in a ditch that feeds into Lake Butler in Florida.

I have not seen any displays from the males.
I really love these fish> I don't get why other people do not get excited about them
I sometimes look at my fish with a flashlight at night. When I look at the omattas this way they have many greens and blues that I do not see from the T5's above. Beautiful fish in my book, even when I can't see the blues and greens the yellows and browns are electric in mine.

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#40 Guest_Elijah_*

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 06:23 PM

Here's a hyperlink to her spawning description: http://www.killi.co....sult.php?ID=418

Would you mind posting a picture of these males with green dorsal fins?

It says "never in a community tank." Well mine are with E. zonatum now and have become much less docile, but not aggressive. I'm sure it lowers my chance of surviving fry,but being as how they always have blackworms and fresh daphnia in the tank, I am not too worried about that.
Really what I should do is set up a heavily vegetated container pond. These are wild caught and probably more colorful than those available from aquaculture sources. I have a hard time taking the risk of losing them by putting them outside. Birds, raccoons, frogs.... Frogs always find a way into my container ponds even when the sides are 2 and 1/2 feet high.