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Possible pygmy sunfish setup

Started by Guest_jpappy789_* , Jul 17 2011 02:19 AM

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#21 Guest_jpappy789_*

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 11:04 PM

I use the Walstad method with no filter in a 10g tank. It is one of my most stable tanks. No algae issues...I keep mostly small leaved plants in it, but have some tall saggitaria in one corner, and a thick carpet of Marsileaceae in the foreground. I keep a cool piece of driftwood covered in java moss where much of the egg laying takes place. The one problem I have is an abundance of ramshorn snails which I am constantly having to catch. My darters in the darter tank love em though!
I have an elassoma Zonatum tank which was loaded with fry until I added L. omatta. I still have some population generation, but it has been reduced. I really dig omattas though.
Anyway, in my 10g. I probably have 15-20 adults and many young of different ages. I have no water quality problems and never do a water change. I just top off.
I started with about six adults. I recommend going with the 10g and six to eight adults to keep the gene pool varied.
I also get a tablespoon of live blackworms and add them to the tank every 2-3 months, or when they appear to be gone. The blackworms colonize the substrate which I do not mind at all. The fish are well fed and you can leave for weeks with no worries. Make sure to rinse the worms in de-chlorinated water as the water they come in is sometimes filthy and may harbor bacteria. I keep a kiddie pool out back with daphnia in it. I bought one portion last year and added it to the pool with some plant matter. Did not find daphnia last year, but this year it was loaded until the weather became really hot. I expect to have a pool full in the fall though. The fish go crazy for daphnia and again their is very little work involved. I have not had much luck keeping cultures indoors though.


Thanks for the response! I think I will try the blackworms first. Thought about trying some daphnia as well but it would have to be something I could culture indoors as winters up here arent very nice...

Aquatic plants harbor beneficial bacteria too.


Yep. Only thing is that the added weight of the soil/sand and the water I would need to keep the plants somewhat moist during transport isn't worth it.

#22 Guest_FirstChAoS_*

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 12:27 AM

I was wondering how well those mini fluval plant and shrimp tanks would do for pygmy sunnies and least killies? Their are a few on display at a local pet store including one or two with fish in them and only lack of space keeps me from buying one.

#23 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 09:09 AM

Jpappy,

I kept a group of E. okefenokee for a number of years in a 5-gallon tank that was heavily planted. If I remember correctly there were at least 2 males that were colored up at all times. This tank had a soil substrate with a 1/2-inch layer of fine gravel on the top. It was unfiltered, which actually helps keep suitably-sized fry food around by not filtering them out. Fish were fed blackworms and they bred pretty well.

Also, if you do use soil as an underlayment for the substrate, your tank should be cycled instantly. That has been my experience for many soil tanks (never had one that didn't instantly cycle). So if you do plan to use soil, you won't have to transport used filter media etc. to get the cycle started.

#24 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 11:24 AM

I agree with nativeplanter's post and would like to clarify about the instantly cycled statement. Soil from outside, yes, lots of beneficial bacteria. Soil that was baked and put into a bag, maybe not. I use baked kitty litter in a lot of my tanks and I can't imagine bacteria surviving the sterilizing process. Nativeplanter is entirely right--if you use soil that hasn't been sterilized. Just keep that in mind.

Also always put a capping layer, like gravel, sand, or kitty litter, over your soil. Learned that the hard way this past week. What do you know, it turns out composted mulch floats. Gah.

Edited by EricaWieser, 20 July 2011 - 11:27 AM.

#25 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 11:59 AM

I agree with nativeplanter's post and would like to clarify about the instantly cycled statement. Soil from outside, yes, lots of beneficial bacteria. Soil that was baked and put into a bag, maybe not. I use baked kitty litter in a lot of my tanks and I can't imagine bacteria surviving the sterilizing process. Nativeplanter is entirely right--if you use soil that hasn't been sterilized. Just keep that in mind.

Also always put a capping layer, like gravel, sand, or kitty litter, over your soil. Learned that the hard way this past week. What do you know, it turns out composted mulch floats. Gah.


Quite true, I meant to mention that. If you happen to use bagged soil instead of real soil, check the label to be sure it hasn't been sterilized. There are a few sterile mixes out there; often used for seed starting.

Bagged "composted" ingredients never seem to be fully composted. If they were, you wouldn't be able to recognize them. It's irritating how many mixes have millions of wood chunks. Very poor potting material for houseplants/garden. On the other hand, they can be helpful in planted tanks - as they break down they will increase your CO2 and promote denitrification.

#26 Guest_jpappy789_*

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 06:28 PM

Soil from outside, in my area, is probably a bad idea. Too many chemicals in suburbia...not something I want to risk.

I definitely planned on capping the soil with a layer of sand.

#27 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 10:08 AM

Soil in suburbia isn't necessarily problematic. You just need to get it from an area that isn't a manicured lawn or a garden where fertilizers and/or pesticides are used. If you can find a weedy lawn, I think it's a pretty good bet that it hasn't been treated with fertilizers or pesticides in some time. Obviously, avoid areas where cars have been parked. Areas with trees and leaf mulch (without lawn) or meadows are usually safe as well.

I much prefer outdoor topsoil over store-bought topsoil. The store bought stuff has a lot more compost added to it. I like the soil to be relatively fertilie (as compared to sand/gravel) and with a good CEC, but not as fertile as the purchased stuff is.

Over the years, I have found that I mostly prefer to put a layer of old dried leaves in the bottom, then topsoil from outside, then 1/2 inch or so of fine gravel (or sand, depending on the species being grown).

#28 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 01:50 PM

Over the years, I have found that I mostly prefer to put a layer of old dried leaves in the bottom, then topsoil from outside, then 1/2 inch or so of fine gravel (or sand, depending on the species being grown).

This is an extremely popular method to setting up aquariums. Many people adore it, and if you google Walstad tanks you'll find thousands of beautiful tanks all growing healthy plants with a soil substrate.

To add some more options to your list of ways to set up a successful planted tank, here is a photo of my 55 gallon Elassoma gilberti tank, which had less than $8 of Walmart brand Special Kitty® brand litter in it: http://gallery.nanfa...ageViewsIndex=2
And here is an article you might find interesting: http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html

The general consensus conclusion most people take from reading that article is that soil and kitty litter are both less expensive and equally valid alternatives to Fluorite®, which is a product by Seachem that is currently one of the most popular (and prohibitively expensive) substrates among AGA planted tanks.
Fluorite: http://www.seachem.c...s/Flourite.html
Aquatic Gardener's Association 2009 Aquascaping contest: http://showcase.aqua...ategory=0&vol=2

#29 Guest_jetajockey_*

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 11:45 PM

Soil from outside, in my area, is probably a bad idea. Too many chemicals in suburbia...not something I want to risk.

I definitely planned on capping the soil with a layer of sand.


Hey jp good to see you over here. I have a colony of elassoma with het formosa and also l.ommata, and they all get along well. I have seen the elassoma go after newborn formosa fry, but I've never seen aggression between any of the species.

I feed them flake/microworms. I was also feeding grindal worms but my worm colony took a dump so that's not going to happen for a while.

One thing I noticed in my 40b is that many of the elassoma camp on the sponge filter, and spend an awful lot of time pecking at it, so the microfauna in it seems to serve as a form of sustenance as well. I also believe they eat snail eggs readily, but I've never seen them doing so. I still keep ramshorns and nerites in their tank just for good measure.

Edited by jetajockey, 24 July 2011 - 11:46 PM.

#30 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 09:05 AM

Hey jp good to see you over here. I have a colony of elassoma with het formosa and also l.ommata, and they all get along well.

Do you get baby Elassoma?

#31 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 11:13 AM

I also believe they eat snail eggs readily, but I've never seen them doing so.


I have read this before... and experienced it in my tanks too... not sure if it the eggs or the young, but they do seem to thrive in tanks with snails... and the snail population never seems to explode with the pygmys in place...
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#32 Guest_jetajockey_*

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 05:07 PM

Do you get baby Elassoma?


I've not seen any in the few months that I've had this grouping together. The tank is moderately planted, though, and my feeding schedule has been sporadic at best. The sunfishes stay healthy though, only had one loss out of 15+ fish, and the rest have nice plump bellies.

#33 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 08:17 PM

I've not seen any in the few months that I've had this grouping together. The tank is moderately planted, though, and my feeding schedule has been sporadic at best. The sunfishes stay healthy though, only had one loss out of 15+ fish, and the rest have nice plump bellies.

Ah, see, that's the problem. Every time I mix the Elassoma with other fish species they stop breeding. The fish get along and the adults stay alive and everything, but they don't spawn.

#34 Guest_jpappy789_*

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 01:16 AM

What the setup looks like as of last night.

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#35 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 10:18 AM

I don't believe they eat the eggs, but rather the newly hatched snails which still have fairly soft shells. My tank was always covered in snail eggs, and they never showed any sign of predation until the baby snails were visibly developed. I also had a giant wad of Cladophora algae in the tank, which when I tore it down was full of tiny hatchling snails, but after being set up for more than a year there were several hundred pinhead snails but only about half a dozen that ever survived to the 2-3mm size range (and these made it to adulthood). That further convinces me that the Elassoma were eating the snails themselves, not the eggs.

#36 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 10:56 AM

I don't believe they eat the eggs, but rather the newly hatched snails which still have fairly soft shells. My tank was always covered in snail eggs, and they never showed any sign of predation until the baby snails were visibly developed. I also had a giant wad of Cladophora algae in the tank, which when I tore it down was full of tiny hatchling snails, but after being set up for more than a year there were several hundred pinhead snails but only about half a dozen that ever survived to the 2-3mm size range (and these made it to adulthood). That further convinces me that the Elassoma were eating the snails themselves, not the eggs.

I'd buy that. In my tank there are a lot of egg cases, a lot of adult snails, and not any at all of that tiny, just-hatched sized snail. It was yesterday that I was looking at the 10 gallon guppy tank and saw a tiny, just-hatched snail that I realized it's odd there aren't any that size in the 55 gallon Elassoma tank.

#37 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 10:56 AM

What the setup looks like as of last night.

It's so pretty! What's that mixed color plant on the right?

Edit:
Also, is that foreground sword-looking plant going to stay small? You might want to try Hemianthus callitrichoides instead. I put it in the foreground of my 55 gallon Elassoma gilberti tank and they're going wild over it.
http://gallery.nanfa...hoides.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...lberti.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...oom in.jpg.html
They sit on it and under it and just generally glomp onto it whenever they can.

Edited by EricaWieser, 07 August 2011 - 11:00 AM.

#38 Guest_jetajockey_*

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 02:08 PM

Ah, see, that's the problem. Every time I mix the Elassoma with other fish species they stop breeding. The fish get along and the adults stay alive and everything, but they don't spawn.



Interesting concept. I'm going to move mine to a species tank to see if the males will color up a little better. I added a few more evergladei that I picked up yesterday while collecting l.omatta and they were very dark and colorful shortly after adding to the tank, however in time just went to pale like the rest.

I had a male in one of my guppy tanks and I added a female to see what would happen and as soon as he saw her he colored up brightly, but I noticed after a day or so he was back to pale looking.

#39 Guest_jpappy789_*

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 06:40 PM

It's so pretty! What's that mixed color plant on the right?

Edit:
Also, is that foreground sword-looking plant going to stay small? You might want to try Hemianthus callitrichoides instead. I put it in the foreground of my 55 gallon Elassoma gilberti tank and they're going wild over it.
http://gallery.nanfa...hoides.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...lberti.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...oom in.jpg.html
They sit on it and under it and just generally glomp onto it whenever they can.


That would be Ludwigia repens aka broad leaf Ludwigia

In the front is supposed to be dwarf sag although it is a bit taller than I expected. I've never had any luck with HC in the past, it tends to grow up for me instead of side-to-side.

#40 Guest_Taari_*

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 12:23 AM

I believe HC requires very high light and CO2 to spread out in a carpet. I've only ever seen it used as a carpet plant in very high tech tanks. Dwarf Sag stays about 2-3 inches tall until it fills in pretty compactly, then it starts growing taller instead of spreading more, so once you have a thick carpet of it, it needs thinned out occasionally.
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